Might I point out that the complexities involving the moral designations of evil, good, and otherwise may have been the very reason that HM, as a system, doesn't use the good vs evil spectrum regarding morality. I would suggest such a mindset would extend to regarding the various faiths of Harn.

In other words, the definition of "evil" becomes whatever the majority of a local population believe it to be - usually a set of acts that prove/demonstrate that any such accused individual is "evil" to their social code. Thus, to lands where Peoni and Larani are revered above others, the simple observed worship of Morgath, Naveh, or Agrik is sufficient for the accusation.

With regard to subjective morality, I leave that to the vagueness involved in HM regarding the individual and whatever faith they personally ascribe to; either their god(s) stay on the individual's side, or abandon the individual when divine intervention is requested.

The psychopath (person with Anti-Social Personality Disorder) will likely not recognize a deity's authority over him/her, just like they cannot accept any other limitation to their own motivations. They are incapable of true subjective understanding of morality in and of itself, but learn to conform to society based upon what will maximize their successes, and minimize unpleasantness (although they don't learn anything from being subjected to unpleasantness other than how to avoid it next time, while still being able to do their problematic ambitions). A psychopath will not recognize church authority except as an intellectual exercise to master to get into whatever position they desire for the tangible rewards and comforts it brings, which are few in certain Harnic faiths. The faiths most acceptable to a psychopath in Harn would be Larani, Agrik, Sarajin, and Halea. Naveh would have the least draw to a true psychopath; indeed, one would be found out and removed for lack of ability to follow orders very, very quickly. Peoni lacks the tangible rewards, as does Siem. Save-K'nor frankly would be too much work for the characteristically impatient psychopath. Ilvir would be too boring and chaotic, along with no benefit to impress or advance to greater comforts. And while it could be thought that Morgath would be a fun place for a psychopath, remember there is a distinction between the true psychopath that cannot recognize moral constraints to their desires and the PSYCHOTIC that likes to rip heads off of animals, and do other atrocities out of liking the sound of screams and the taste of human innards.... (The psychopath would be the one avoiding the Morgathian way...)

The serial killer, on the other hand, must be understood by the "problem" that guides them - is this person a psychopath (that kills victims of their other offenses, mainly to conceal evidence)? Is this person a purely psychotic individual, with the sickness to look at people the way others look at lunch? Is this person "hearing voices" to tell them to kill for a holy cause? etc.... etc..... Indeed, how a serial killer fits into the various churches of Harn would depend upon other personality traits - desire for power (Agrik), desire simply to kill (Naveh), or thrive on the trimmings of killing (the screams, blood, etc, that are the trademarks of Morgath - before they turn you undead and do it all over again...)

In the long run, you can have the follower of Peoni that hears voices and kills patients to send the faithful to a better land, but these "angel of death" persons will still have a HM morality that is highly variable, depending on the rest of their personality. Will they last long in the faith? maybe, depending on if they can get the patients least likely to survive anyway... But wait for the error to come along, the time that an easy to cure patient dies under their care... then the faith will expel this "deviant" for their actions, and may even lay charges of murder and witchcraft (for hearing voices)...

In the meantime, it is up to the way the GM runs their universe to determine if that Peonian priest still has any piety points at any spot in this example character's time.

And that means... "evil" is whatever the GM says it is...

The usefulness of the religion to the psychopath is a useful way of looking at it Varlenn. I agree that agrik, Larani, Sarajin and Halea would be most useful depending on which country one is in.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Perhaps I am extremely dense, but I don't see the Halean church as a particullary good fit for psychotic individuals. Other than (perhaps) the practioners of S&M in the church, it doesn't seem like either a martially inclined or sadistic religion. Hedonistic yes, but death loving or even casually death accepting?

Note that I am assuming gladitorial slaves are more the province of the Agikan church, though admittedly the Halaens could have an iron in that fire too. Still, other than that, I can't see why the Goddess of Pleasure or her church would tolerate someone who got his jollies by killing others.

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...and I'm not dead yet...

She's also the goddess of bargains. I could see an insane individual justifying their excesses as "honoring a bargain" (or punishing those who have broken theirs).

There seems to be a misconception that psychopaths enjoy killing. It is true that some psychopaths become serial killers, but it is actually not the most common manifestations of their problems.

A psychopath has no moral constraints to prevent them from acting on their ambitions, and cannot learn right from wrong, although they are fully aware of punishments set upon them. They just don't learn the right lessons from usual social discipline.

Frequently their main motivation is similar to most other people's: to lead a comfortable life without working hard for it, and to have all their interests indulged in. This generally works for most people within the constraints of social order, but for the psychopath such social order is a massive impediment to the fact that they want it all NOW! Killing others is only one option for removing such obstacles between the ambitions and the present conditions. The feminine approach of wrecking others' reputations is another option for them, and is more favored by the generally less violent female psychopaths.

Hence the faith of Halea is a good place to hide if one is both a psychopath and female....

As Varlenn said....

I see Halea as the most rewarding deity; and as sciopaths/psychopaths/people with antisocial PD (all the same thing loosely) are all about reward I can see them choosing Haleanism. As for Halea choosing them...not so sure.



Dirty Boy! Hedonism without effort could be the Mantra for sociopaths...again another reason why Halea would be juicy for them. I would certainly say it is a casually accepting death religion; (Like them all) but only a non-casually accepting murder religion. So a serial killing hedonist might gravitate to Halea but be rejected....although Halea would have access to the tools to control such an individual if needed....

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

I have noticed we have gone down the line of sociopaths here..leaving out schizophrenic 'hearing voices types'....any thoughts?

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Ilvir. IMC, one of the PCs is an Ilviran priest who regularly has conversations with inanimate objects.

If the deity is one that fosters social order, they will not fit in. The more orderly the religion's social hierarchy, and rigid the dogma, the more they would be found out and dealt with - mainly as a potentially dangerous "radical" (or "touched" by the god) individual. If the ramblings of the schizophrenic seem to make sense (and some do, although you will leave the conversation wondering exactly what it was all about due to the tangents in the topic stream), and the individual seems harmless enough, or "appropriately weird", the insane one may be venerated as a saint, or become a sort of oracle, usually with some kind of staff of acolytes to care for him/her.

On the other hand, if the traits of the psychotic individual seem dangerous (specifically to the faith), then a charge of witchcraft is always an option, with the usual forms of execution.

This is easier to answer for monotheistic societies than it is for polytheistic ones.

Polytheistic societies were such that the insane person may try to find a religion that suited their symptoms - to find out what god was touching them, so to speak. Or, at least the right deity would be sought to care for the individual given the afflicted's limitations on personal care. On Harn, I picture only 4 religions that would take in such an individual, each with their own motivations.

If the psychotic is harmless, albeit can have rather repulsive characteristics (finger painting with feces on walls, for instance), both Ilviran and Peonian clergy may shelter and care for them, although with different levels of constraint/desire to cure (Peoni mostly), or sheer morbid curiosity of what insights may lie in the psychotic's "art" (Ilvir)...

If the psychotic exhibits violent tendencies there would be allegations of being touched by the Shadow of Bukrai, and thus Morgathians may take this person and make him/her some kind of oracle or "saintly" figure. If around Agrikans, such an individual would make for very potentially exciting events in the Pamesani Arena, but would otherwise have no purpose. Any other faith would toss the individual to the secular authorities for elimination.

Such are my thoughts on the matter.

That's a good point. In medieval understanding people hearing voices in their heads are probably speaking to spirits. The churches are likely to consider them to be NOT church related voices - maybe demons or other spirits leading people astray/to do evil. The local populace is not likely to have a much different point of view.

If it was considered a church related voice then the church would likely want first dibs on the message.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

That seems to indicate that the less hierarchical tribal religions/shamans might be a refuge for such an individual. Especially if said individual had a less than favorable view of the Kingdom/Culture he was fleeing from...

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...and I'm not dead yet...

Interestingly current events in the "Global Warming Information War" ethicists are debating all four of the above in generally the manner I was suggesting here/above ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12578#p163302 )

A major Global Warming activist recently impersonated a board member of a Skeptic organization got someone to send him the organizations donor and budget information and then, not finding anything specifically incriminating, forged a company memo detailing an appropriately evil sounding plan that explained the items in the budget memos. He then released the package anonymously to a number of Global Warming news outlets as a smoking gun implicating the Skeptic organization in a half dozen evil plots.

Fortunately/Unfortunately the plan quickly unraveled as his distinct writing style was recognized in the creation of the company memo which was an obvious fake.

Various ethicists are now saying his actions are good or evil based on:
The Person - the overall judgement of the ethics of the person
the person is a ethics board member on a half a dozen national boards including the National Academy of Science, American Geophyiscal Union, etc

The Act - the Action itself.
the act itself is deceitful: lying, stealing, impersonation, forgery, etc

The Result - the effects of the action
if he succeeded he may have undermined the only major Skeptic organizer, fund raiser and think tank.
However, in failing he has undermined dozens of national organizations he was a member of, the column he wrote for Forbes magazine, other work he did as an activist against bottled water.
The actual information he turned up was harmless and showed a tiny under funded organization with no evil oil company donors and much of the funding going to healthcare initiatives and other projects.
The whole issue ended up exposing the seedy underbelly of the Global Warming movement instead of the intended target.

The Motive - the intention/reason for the act
as a quote: "Kant said that when judging the morality of an act, we must weigh the intentions of the actor. Was he acting selfishly, to benefit himself, or selflessly, to help others? By this criterion, [his] lie was clearly moral, because he was defending a cause that he passionately views as righteous…"

there are dozens of factors complicating the issue such as:
He had been communicating with the organization beforehand and they stated that though they had promoted everyone publishing donors in the past no one else did and it had become a safety issue with donors subject to harassment and threats. Publishing private information that put individuals safety at risk.
He was invited to the Skeptic's forum for a paid debate where he could have raised any issues he had publicly at no cost to himself.
He is a ethics promoter and professional ethicist.
He is a scientist - as well as a journalist and activist - and scientists have specific rules about proof and openness further his lapse undermines faith in other scientists and organizations.
Global Warming believers widely believe the "Climategate" emails that exposed lies, hidden information and pressure tactics embarassing and undermining the Global Warming movement may have been stolen or hacked - thus justifying similar tactics in response.

Not to mention "perspective" as in do you believe in "catastrophic man made global warming" or that "global warming alarmism is a lie or a scam"

Some of his supporters not only consider his actions "moral" but "heroic": putting his profession and repution on the line at great personal risk to take down a evil global warming denier and servant of the global oil funded denialist conspiracy.


One discussion specifically addressing the ethics is here - and adresses all 4 of the above considerations: http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2012/02/ ... -the-line/

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

o/t:

Hilariously the forged memo at the center of the contoversy not only led to easily identifing the forger but has been remarked as:

“Basically, it reads like it was written from the secret villain lair in a Batman comic. By an intern.”

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)