As I mentioned in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13456), I am running combat exercises between to different NPC's to learn the combat system. I just finished my first one. I'll supply a narrative, then I have some questions.

The combatants were chosen from the Friends, Foes, and Followers collection of NPC's. I picked (more or less randomly) Sir Taran Ulris, an Ulthriem Roliri Warden) and Mya of Risalsin, an Agrikian cleric. Sir Taran had 96.2 pounds of equipment. If I've reckoned things correctly, with his Endurance of 15 96.2 / 15 = 6.4, rounded down to 6, gives a physical penalty of 30. Similarly, Rya's equipment weighed in at 53.4 pounds. With an endurance of 12, her physical penalty was 20. Sir Taran used his broadsword and Mya used her mace.

Round 1: Sir Taran gets the initiative. He chooses a high aiming point, hoping to put a quick end to this confrontation. He swings. Mya dodges swooshes above her head. Mya tries to hit Sir Taran with her mace, but she misses. Sir Taran counterstrikes, the tip of his sword connecting with Mya's jaw to give a serious wound. Even though the mass of broken bone and lacerated flesh which was once her jaw is dangling loosely from her head (S2 injury), she does not go into shock. But she does get annoyed that she won't ever be able to bite into a nice juicy apple again.

Round 2: She seizes the initiative, swinging at Sir Taran's midsection. Sir Taran tries to block the blow with his shield. However, both of them execute their moves poorly. Mya ends up fumbling her face, but manages to just keep hold of it. Sir Taran slashes savagely at her midsection with what would have been an excellently placed blow, but Mya manages to dodge the worst of it, but her dodge wasn't good enough. The last thing she sees before she faints is the growing red strain on her quilted vest (S2 injury). Shock sets in. Combat over in 20 seconds of game time.

Questions:
1) I am confused about initiative (rules are HM3). The NPC's have scores for their initiative. For example Sir Taran has an 84, and Rya has 90. However, the rules (as far as I have read in HM3) simply say that the character with the highest initiative goes first. So, if the order of combat is decided by relative ranking of all initiative roles, what is the use of having a pass/fail score? There is no pass or failure, the role just indexes the player's turn in the sequence.

2) Assuming the character's initiative score means something, what do you do if both characters fail their initiative score?

3) Are initiative roles affected by physical penalty? I assume they are because initiative is a physical skill roll. Can some please supply an example calculation?

4) How does the physical penalty affect a fumble roll? Again, an example calculation would be useful.

Thanks.

1) The character with the highest Initiative has the first turn in each round, followed by the second highest, and so on. If characters have the same Initiative, ties are broken (for the duration of the combat) by the character with the highest Initiative SB, or by die roll if still tied.

John has an Initiative of 15/75 (SB/ML), Sarah has 13/65 and Peter has 15/60.
If John has an Encumbrance of 5 he would have an Initiative of 15/50. Sarah with an Encumbrance of 3 has 13/50. Finally Peter with his Encumbrance of 2 have 15/50.
Since all three has an Initiative of 50 in this example we need to break the tie by SB first and by a die roll if needed. John and Peter have the same SB (15) so they will act before Sarah (13). John and Peter each roll a die (d10) to separate them. John roll an 8 and Peter a 2. So the John will act first in this combat, Peter second and Sarah will act last.

If any of them get injured, the order can change, although the tie-breakers will be the same. So John will act before Peter who will act before Sarah in any case their Initiative order are the same.

2) The only time you roll for the Initiative skill is if using the optional rule about engage and for Morale. The optional rule for engaging is used when you need to take the action Engage (or Charge) to attack (i.e. you need to move more than the one hex, the normal Melee attack option allows you to do). In this case when the attacker has moved into the defender zone both roll against Initiative EML and with a tie or win the attacker continues with the attack (if he wants to if this was an engage, or he must do so if this was a charge). If the defender wins, then the defender earns himself a TA. When using Initiative for Morale (Combat 18) I personally don't penalized it with Encumbrance.

3-4) Initiative is a physical skill so it should be affected by physical penalty. In my example above John has Initiative ML 75 and an Encumbrance of 5. Encumbrance is a penalty to physical attributes as it stand and to skills with a multiplier of 5. So John will have a penalty of 5 to fumble or stumble rolls. Fumble rolls are tested with 3d6 against Dexterity (Stumble rolls are tested with 3d6 against Agility). John will roll 3d6+Enc (or 3d6+5) on all Fumble/Stumble rolls.
In this, there is a bug on the Injury table or more correctly, I think it is a bug on the Injury table. The Injury table says that you should test for fumble/stumble on minor injuries, but the rules say that only serious injury. Of course you could go either way and say that the rule book is wrong, but that can be quite harsh. (Edit: This has been debated here, but I don't remember thread name or outcome, although probably something with HM3 errata or something like that).

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Thanks Fenhorn, that clarified my initiative questions.

As Fenhorn said

I thought Initiative was also used as a 'combat awareness' (Who is where; what does it look like opponents intent is etc)...but maybe that is just us



Just checking...you are rolling for unconsciousness, then every round for conscioussness and then immediately for shock? It is not 100% clear here. In game terms this can be the real toppler; with a bad wound/wounds, two immediately hard to succeed rolls are needed to wake up AND not be in shock. (Although if not needing quick consciousness the rule is 2d6minutes +IL...and thus only one hard roll).

Also; hard as it is for me to undermine such juicy prose; an S2 ia akin to a fracture...Lady soft fluids above sounds more like an s3 at least

You are probably realising that Harn adventures need a lot of potential rest incorporated into them (unless you use magical or religious healing). With five days min for potential healing; programming an endless cavalcade of battles followed by plot progressing alley chases will likely result in players turning up a month later saying "Was this the alley we ere found in?" and all the cut-purses have gone on to get proper jobs and have families

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

One way to (in addition) use Initiative is to use it as a (basic) tactical skill. The games I currently play has a similar skill that can be used for tactics for a small group. A successful roll can mean a bonus to an ambush attack or more Hârnic perhaps, a successful roll by the "leader" will result in that all the ambusher will act when supposed to and of course that the enemy is surprised (only the ambusher can act offensively, in the first round), a CS could mean extreme surprise (no defence roll) and a failed roll mean that the ambush is ruined an normal combat takes place. Hmm, a CF mean "a-ha there you are , attack" (the ambushed party surprises the ambushers). Also as as the tactic part could be to make an estimation of a battle, on what to do, etc.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

I rolled for shock after the hits. Remarkably, the priestess remained conscious after the strike to her jaw.



Yeah, in the past, good narrations from the GM always added excitement and drama to the encounter. I thought as part of my combat exercise, I would give writing some descriptive prose a shot. Granted, I don't have a good picture yet of what an S2 versus an S3 would look like. Care to venture some prose yourself?



LOL, I haven't thought that far ahead yet. But, yes, HarnMaster isn't like D&D where after a battle, you roll out your handy-dandy cleric who heals everyone, and the group gets back in action.

But getting back to HarnMaster. In the couple of combat simulations I've run so far, the defeated character drops into unconsciousness rather than getting immediately killed. This is very different from a typical D&D encounter where the orcs get killed and the group carries on. This presents a different set of problems for the PC's particularly in an urban environment.

One of my players got injured in a battle, nothing serious (only a minor cut). To shorten the story of the ignorant man and his wound, he died of infection. This was a couple of years a go, but we still bring this tale up and joke about it, especially if someone say "It's okey, it's only a minor".
That's HârnMaster

Edit: To avoid the unpleasant surprise of an enemy that regain consciousness in the middle of a battle (and perhaps attack you in the back) a Coup de Grace is a good choice. A simple Grope test and you can avoid such a nasty suprise

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Well; the wound range for the face is minor 1, serious 2, serious 3, grievious 4, kill 5. (No amputation available). Which means an s2 is two fifths towards the worst that can possibly happen.... On the Treatment table a serious edge is described as cut/gash 2-6" long that requires surgery to treat...

So I think I should have said your lovely description fits a grievous wound...described as over 6"long and a bleeder...

For an S2 edge I think I would purport this: "Sir Taran counterstrikes, the tip of his sword connecting with Mya's jaw to give a serious wound. She steps back and feels her wound with her hand and tongue. Her tongue and fingers connect through the bloodied gash; but it is not a wound vicious enough to to send her into shock. However; she is angry that until the wound is stitched that cool crisp cider will have to wait.."

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

I don't know what the new D&D is like, but if it's anything like AD&D the game wants players to use particular tactics. HM uses nearly the opposite tactics. With multiple bogies placement to minimize outnumbering penalty is key, add multiple players to the mix and placement to maximize party-outnumber penalties is key; always take the high ground (on horseback if possible); aim high; and never, ever just trade blows. Remember, the more damage you take the more difficult actions become which only makes further injury more likely. Combat outside of a legitimate battle, ime, rarely results in the complete destruction of one side - the idea is generally to add enough pressure that the other side quits the field.

(note: I couldn't find the two FFF entries so some of this may not directly apply to your situation.)
The only people who should Dodge are those who are really good at it and really better than their opponent, because unless the dodger can pick up the CS routinely all he's doing is marking time - Dodge only returns DTA when the attacker fails, so you're counting on that. I don't know the armor composition of Sir Taran, but when competently wielding a shield the best option is nearly always Block (which returns the highest number of DTA). Else, for those warriors who are expecting combat and have the opportunity to deck themselves in all their armoured glory (and it looks like Sir Taran in your example was), for Larani's sake Counterstrike and soak the B*1 (predicated, of course, on being better armored than your opponent). You're betting, of course, that your opponent doesn't hit something uncovered.

edit: the tone of my post is not really what I intended; I blame it on public transportation. If I may deign to provide some advice, it's that it pays to always identify the objective and tailor tactics to the situation, exploit your opponent, never overreach, and pressure your opponents' morale. (Oh, and soften the opponent with ranged attacks first). Unless your players like generating new characters every game session, Pamasani (arena) style combats will always be quick and bloody, and the most skilled warrior is always the best bet.

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Cheers, Konnel
KoDa RPG Games Site
Featured: Kèthîra ● Tékumel ● Mystara ● Greyhawk ● Lankhmar ● Kamakura.

I didn't find your tone unpleasant at all; it was fine. I found your post full of good advice. Thanks for taking the time to respond.