I would like to get some feed back on how the following problem might be handled. The situation: A Ream from Gebrond in Trierzon has made port in Cherafir. The day after the ship enters the port the pilot dies. He had an apprentice who has served seven of the nine years required to be a master. There are no master pilots at Cherafir who are able and willing to sign on to be the pilot because either they are already under contract to other ships or do not wish to relocate to Gebrond. The thought here is that the ship would want to return to Gebrond before winter and might never visit Cherafir again. Would the ship be allowed to to return to Gebrond with the apprentice as acting pilot If permission to sail was refused by the pilot's guild how could they prevent the ship from sailing in the dark of night Keep in mind that the seaman on the ship are from Gebrond and might want to go home.

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

I know that but the ship is in a size six port with a pilot's guild. Will it be allowed to sail with a designated pilot

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

A local guilded pilot can sail it out into deep water and hand it over to the crew, then return to Cherafir. The main job of the pilot is to handle the tricky waters around each port. It is not at all uncommon for a ship to approach a port and wait at anchor until a local pilot can guide it in.
Upon returning home, the captain would decide if the rookie is up to the task in local waters or if he wants to wait for a local pilot on that end.
In any event there should be one or more pilots available at the guild for that sort of as-needed work, which would be only a watch or so in duration (row or sail out, pilot in, then the reverse when the ship leaves port).

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Heroes should be uncommon. They just happen to be the PCs.

What, in your mind, could prevent that? And why???

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Granted all of the above but the question still is what about after the ship drops of the Harbor Pilot. Canon says a ship over 30 foot long must have a master pilot. But once the harbor pilot is droped off all the ship in this case has is a designated pilot ie. the apprentice of seven years. The question is how is this handled by the guild

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

That is the question I was asking

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

Actually no. Canon sez the Pilot's guild has convinced the Mangai that it is a good idea having a law saying 30+ ft ships absolutely need a pilot aboard. And the Pilot's guild has a ruling for designated pilots in case of emergencies, so there's no breach of guild monopoly here that I can see.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

The ship is in a foreign port when the pilot dies so there is no emergency except the ship wants to sail and there is no master pilot available.

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

This is my take on this:

According to the guild law, you have to have a master pilot if you vessel is 30 feet or more in length. But we have exceptions to this. Here are some exceptions and these are not just necessary about the pilots guild.

1) If the guild is not present (and that means within five leagues or within a days travel by foot), there is no guild that can challenge any breach of guild law.

2) Not all kingdoms recognize the guild system. A guild has no rights outside its jurisdiction. "International" water is not within anyone's jurisdiction. The term international water is later than Hârn but is fairly close (even shorter) to the guild distance mentioned above.

On a ship the captains law is the only law. Sure it can be awfully stupid to breach the guild law nearby a guild. But if the captain hires the harbourmaster (a master pilot) by paying pilotage when he enters a port (he has to anyway) and also when he leaves (he has to do that as well) he has broken no guild law and then when captain leaves the harbourmaster behind, he is outside the ports and the guilds jurisdiction.
Then in the long run it can be dangerous to make an enemy of the pilots guild because when you do want to hire a pilot your reputation may have proceeded you. And yes, it can also be extremely dangerous to travel by sea without a good pilot.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

{quote="Fenhorn"]

The apprentice "designated pilot" has seven years experience under three master pilots (should have mentioned that in the begining ) so he has the skills of a master pilot and the captain would be willing to hire him as the ship's pilot. So does the captain make an enemy of the guild if he does Would the harbor master at Cherafir provide pilot services to a ship leaving port without a certified master pilot What would be the reactions of the pilot's guilds at other ports the ship might stop at on it's way home What would be the reaction of the pilot's guild at the ship's home port

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

I think this falls under the "$#@! happens" category. Guild rules and even common law are there to protect privilege and power and kep the peace. But if circumstances are such that the rules are inappropriate, they get bent as a matter of course. It's not the first time (and certainly not the last) that a ship has lost its pilot to unforseen circumstances while in port.

But as others have pointed out, that 30' rule typically applies to ships pulling into ports. Pilots who work in ports are there to help navigate foreign vessels past local hazards. Every time a foreign ship (and by 'foreign' I mean a ship whose registry isn't to this very port) puts into a particular port, it contracts the services of a local pilot to take it in from anchorage to the actual docks, and back out again on the departure. Even if a vessel has a master pilot aboard, they still need a local to take them in and out of any port other than their port-of-registry.

For what it's worth, there are lots of places where this is still the case. I had a friend who at one time was studying to be a pilot on the stretch of the Mississippi between New Orleans and the Gulf of Mexico. Every tanker or cargo ship from pretty much anywhere in the world that transits that passage does so at the hands of a local pilot.

But the role of a pilot on the open sea (or even along a coast) is somewhat different. Their job is to navigate the ship such that it reaches its intended destination using knowledge of landmarks, ocean features, currents, winds, etc. So the bigger issue is not one of having a pilot who is not officially a master. It's rather one of having someone who knows what to do. If the apprentice pilot in question is capable and can understand the rutter (often coded) of his former master sufficiently to navigate the ship home, I don't think anyone is going to have a problem with it.

But once they get back home, they'll need the services of a local master to get them into port again (even if they're going to their port-of-registry) because they don't have a locally-recognized master pilot aboard.

A dead pilot, homesick sailors and a ship hundreds of leagues from its registry port is an emergency; or if you prefer, a case of force majeure.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

I think the captain has done everything that can be expected if him, then if the guild have nothing to offer, there is not much he can do.

Laws can be tricky and guild laws, even trickier. Only an injured party can initiate legal action (there are exceptions, like if it is felony).


Garlic the Farmhand has made a whole bunch of leather belts. He made them himself instead of buying htem basically because it is cheaper and also the nearest hideworker lives 20 leagues from him. Not far from his manor is a town, only about four leagues away. In that is town square with daily market and there is also a couple of merchantmen and a chandler. The chandler franchise includes a shop. If he one day decides to sell some of his belts to some persons that are passing by. Who can initiate legal action against Garlic the Farmhand because of what he did?

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

This is true in modern "anglo-saxon" civil law, though even there the concept is much frayed. It is not a universal principle. Guild rules are more like modern "regulations", and thus anyone may bring them to the attention of the appropriate authorities.



Anyone may bring the matter to the attention of the Mangai Council, who can then make a finding and, if the matter merits it, pass it on to the secular authority for criminal punishment, or if the villains are members, sanction them internally.

In this case, no one is likely to waste their time. At most, the local lord is going to fine Garlic "one fine belt, extra long".

Garlic should have visited his nearby town and offered his belts to the Chandler (there is no local hideworker and the chandler has a chop). Also he has no right to hold a market in his manor so if he wants to sell them he should have visited the market and hired himself a spot on the town square (after talking to the Chandler and the Mercantylers guild).

So the injured parties here would be the Chandler (with the help from his guild) and whoever controls the market rights. But sure any one can tell the chandler or the Mercantylers guild (if it is them that administer the market on the town square) that Garlic is standing in his village under an awning from his barn selling leather belts. But no one else but the injured party themselves can take legal action.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Garlic and his belts aside I think there are five points to be made,
1) The Mangai are more akin to a chamber of commerce. Their role is to act a spokes group for the guilds to the secular authorities. Inforcement of guild "privilages" rests with the guilds themselves. The guilds probably have the power of low justice which means they can impose fines and confiscate goods and tools for breach of privilage using the services of the secular authority to assist. Additional action might also be taken by the secular authority.
2) A ship is always the sovereign territiory of the nation of it's port of registry. That is the laws Teierzon apply to a ship from any port in Teierzon, the laws of Melderyn apply to a ship from any port in Melderyn.
3) A ship entering a port is subject to the local laws/rules relating to pilotage, anchorage, etc. The fees collected are divided between the persons providing the services and the local secular authortity which is an arrangement the local Pilot's Guild and the Mangai have made.
4) Pilot's Guilds in all ports that have them are rather like Chantries of Arcane Lore. They maintain contact with each other but each is an independent enity. Like all guilds Pilot's Guilds exist to maximize the income of their members by liimiting the number of members available to fill the available "franchises" They do this by limiting the number of apprentices and by controling the advancement to the rank of Master so there are just enough masters to pilot the ships regestered at that port and fill the other slots needing master pilots.
5) The Mangai and the Pilot's Guild do not control the employment of pilots. Pilots are employed by the the ower(s) of a ship, acting in most cases through the captain. However, in a age in which maritime insurance has yet to be invented sending a ship to sea is a risk that falls on the owner(s) and it represents a major investement of capital resources. The lost of a ship could ruin the ower so most ships are owned by syndics including both mercantylers and others with money to invest. These owners have shares in the ship and want to protect their investment by having the ship managed by a compent crew which includes a skilled pilot. The Pilot's Guild in effect guaranties that the guild master pilot has the necessay training.

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin

Where do you get this idea? Is this in the Law article? Historically, this principle only applies to a very limited set of circumstances (i.e. torts).

If a strip club opens up in your town contrary to local ordinances, you don't actually have your morals corrupted before you can report the crime.

So yes it is in the law article. And regarding the history lesson, there is a difference between crime and crime. For example: If my character is robbed, nobody but my character can take legal action against the robber (for this crime). If a barmaid saw the robbery and report this to the townguards, and they ask my character about it and I say "I have no idea what you are talking about". There is not much the townguards can do. If the same barmaid later on saw me having a dinner, eating various bodyparts of that robber (cannibalism) and reports this, the townsguards will arrest me because that is a felony (and murder is a felony as well and a good guess it that my characters has killed him first). This was quite common and still is. If I am robbed, I am the one that can take legal actions.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

I guess that answers the question.

I thought that this is how ALL shipping acted. IMPHARN; ships do not enter port without a local pilot. It is a kind of enforced service (albeit a sensible one) on visiting ships. In no way would a ship's pilot be allowed to pilot the ship in alone. At busy ports this might even cause a delay in entry and 'jostling' for getting the attention of the busy pilot.

(As an aside I have just had a holiday on the Rame Peninsula opposite Plymouth; and as tankers and foreign warships came in it was great fun watching the little tug boats puff out to meet them. I presume port pilots still exist in some form; but even with my daughters astrological telescope I could not see anyone alight aboard. Maybe it is all done remotely nowadays)

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Ah good; my P-Harn is Canoninical it seems.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

The solution is evident
The captain will pay the jounior pilot the wages of the master pilot.
The kid will then submit to the pilot's guild in their home port and pay the difference between his regular wage and the master's wage to the guild.
The guild will accept this chunk of cash and the dead man's rutter and reasign the boy to another master.

The guild gets more cash than it would have, the captain is not unduly harmed, and the boy gains valuable experience (and learns how to get hosed). Seems normal to me.

{quote="Peter the Skad"]

More the likely the pilot had already boarded the ship before the tug boats met it.

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The venerable James
Web Site: http://www.jswatson.info
Seeking Harn Players in Madison, Wisconsin