So, I have a question for the folks here on the boards. Are the attribute maximums an 18 for all attributes, regardless of race? The reason I ask is more complex than I first thought. For what it's worth, I'm using HMG as my preferred system.

1) Racial modifiers certainly can (and may) reduce a maximum to something less than an 18 (Khuzdul and Aura leaps immediately to mind). If racial modifiers can modify an unadjusted dice roll below the maximum, why not the other way as well. (This was raised by a player, as a GM I can accept that it's for game balance, or any other number of reason, or the simple sake of not having a bunch of Khuzdul running around in my version of Harn ripped like Arnold and stronger than a horse).

2) While I'm somewhat conflicted about a modifer working one way but not the other, I also recognize the fact that i do not want my world to reflect something out of a D&D story. I do not envision my elves as being so fleet of foot that they can dance on the head of a pin with no ML penalties (or the aforementioned dwarves built like somehting out of Warhammer, capable of lifting a small tour bus and accompanying rock band).

3) I'm of the opinion, that the attributes are less important in some ways than players might think. I'm not undervaluing them, but even a fellow with a strength of 6, while not mighty and muscular, could conceivably still have a very serious ML in his chosen weapon, for instance. Skill is the the important thing in many instances, not so much a matter of a straight attribute (not that there aren't instances where this is not true, but you get my point, I hope).

4) Considering the system I use in my game to generate characters, attributes already get a pretty good shake. Players are allowed to rolld 4d6, drop the low dice and immediately assign it to an attribute (no swapping). This adds a bit of gambling to character creation, and more than once, I've seen folks hold out in the hopes they have a better roll for a desired stat later on, only to have it not come up the way they hoped. Sure, you can either put that 14 on your DEX or put it somewhere else, and hope you roll something better than a 14 later on. Let the dice fall where they may.

Anyway, I'd love to hear constructive thoughts from you all. If modifiers allow for greater than 18, I'd be sorely tempted to do away with my generous 4d6 system and force generation through a straight 3d6 system.

Certainly not.

The SUMMARY OF ATTRIBUTE MODIFIERS BY SPECIES & SEX includes Hru Strength +40 this is certainly not to be limited to 18.

An 18 Strength is merely upper end for a 150 lb human - medical and size modifiers can produce humans with freakish strengths to about 30 (more of the Conan size). Comparitively a dwarf with a strength >18 is not that exceptional. Sindarin and Seide Aura bonuses of +4 to +7 are because they are and are intended to be inhumanly high.

By default I use 14 abilities rolling half with 3d6 and half with 4d6. By my "Karma" system later characters in a series might roll all 4d6 (OR in rare cases play and elf or dwarf)

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I knew I'd have an answer just as quick as that. Thanks Feanor, much appreciated (it's precisely because we have a khuzdul player that this arises). I knew other things were capable of having higher than 18 on an attribute, but I have no plans of lettign anybody play a Hru anytime soon, so my question was directly related to sindar and khuzdul.

I played a Hru in a convention-style game run by Pat McDonald. It was amazingly fun and I highly recommend it if you get a chance. I can't see doing it in a long-term game, but a single session was great.

Did you import him through a Godstone?

I assume he's not a female dwarf?!?

Though a bit over-thoughtout for most people I made a strength chart equating Strength vs lifting/curl/row/dragging/rolling weights.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/g/a/garyashburn ... RENGTH.xls

One of the interesting things on the chart is there is a conversion to/from AD&D strengths included and 18-30 Strength for Harn with lifting weights calibated to Human World records. Harninc 18-30 equates very similarly with 18-18/00 strengths from AD&D and lifting scores proposed by that system.

A little more arbitraily the chart continues to include/equate Hru (Harn Str 50) and D&D goldlike strengths (D&D Str 19-25) with Hru falling at about 23 or 24 on the D&D Strength system. It's always nice to know if the Hru can pick up and smash a vehicle the size of a Toyota or how far it can throw the average 200# man (and how much it hurts when he hits the wall).

Another chart I find useful is:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/g/a/garyashburn ... ygiant.xls

which can be used to figure out how heavy various things are.

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Nice, thanks...one of the things I love about this forum. You can always count on somebody to answer your question in detail beyond your wildest dreams. I only half jokingly told my girlfriend that I expected somebody to include strength comparison charts, and was only glad it didn't devolve into a discussion of the Harn potato quandry.

Thanks again, Feanor, your input is always valued.

All in the Harnic tendency to excessive detail.

One of my players' characters jumped in a hole in Mysin one day and then the player was stunned to find I had detailed maps of the contents of the hole (courtesy of the writers of Araka-Kalai).

It didn't help his mood that the hole was 100' deep and there was no convenient way up.

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