OK... I am very close to finally running a game of Harn and just
wanted someone to show me an example of close combat for me so I understand it
and don't miss anything...

I understand initiative and the basics of attack / defense selection but once you
get in to damage and stat negative it starts to confuse me...including
blood loss

Example..
Player - Has a initiative of 67 and attacks first.. he selects standard attack
Enemy - is unaware of the attack and has to take ignore.
Player rolls a CS - so gets a A*4 and rolls 4D6 + weapon str.
Player didn't state aiming zone, so we go with MID - and roll 31 [Upper Arm]
Please Continue..

First I assume standard HM3 rules
Player rolls the 4d6 for Impact, assume in this example 14 was rolled, to this he adds the Aspect of the weapon he used for the attack. Lets assume that he used a Broadsword in the attack and that he used the Edge Impact (5). We add the roll (14) with the weapon (5) and gets 19 for the total impact., The Enemy, even though he was Unaware, may still use whatever armour protection he has on the Strike Location and Subtract that from the Impact. The poor Enemy in our example only has Cloth (Armor Protection Value or APV of 1 versus Edge) so he subtracts 1 from 19 and gets 18. 18 is the Effective Impact. We look on the Injury Table and reads under 17+ (since there is no 18, so 17+ is the nearest we get) and gets G4 and two symbols.

G4 means that the Enemy has four Injury Levels. This mean a penalty of -20 to Universal Penalty (just about everything) and that he must make a Shock Roll. A Shock Roll is made by adding 1d6 for every Injury/Fatigue Level he has and roll that versus Endurance. In our example, lets assume that the Enemy is fresh and uninjuried when this strike occured. This mean that he must make a 4d6 Shock Roll (4 from his new wound of G4). If this roll is over his Endurance then he will be Unconscious.

The diamond means that the Enemy must make a Fumble/Stumble check and since the Strike Location was an Arm, the check is a Fumble Roll. This roll is made with 3d6, but to this you add the Enemies Physical Penalty. Assume that the Enemy in our Example have a Physical Penalty of 1 (he was uninjured but had an Encumbrance of 1) before the injury, but this is increased to 5 thanks to the injury (G4), So he must make a 3d6+5 roll versus Dexterity or fumble. If he fumbles, he will whatever he is holding in the arm that was injured.

The triangle means Amputation Roll. This is rolled with 4d6 (4 from G4) versus 1/10 of the victims weight. If we assume that the Enemy is Mr Joe Average and therefore weigh 153 lbs. This mean that the 4d6 roll would be made versus 15. If the roll exceeds 15 then the limb (Upper Arm in this case) is cut off.

Bleeders. All grevious wounds are Bleeders so the Enemy will have a bleeding wound. This means that the Enemy will lose 1 BP (Blood Points) each minute until stopped (or he dies).

So if we assumes that this poor Enemy manage to stand up (he succeeds with his Shock Roll) and he also manage to do it with both his arm (he also succeeded with the Amputation Roll) and his weapon (he succeeded with his Fumble Roll) he would still have a bleeder, that will eventurally kill him, but he also has a penalty of 4 UP (Universal Penalty). He will also have his Physical Penalty increased to 5 (4 from Universal Penalty and 1 from Encumbrance). The Universal Penalty is applied to all stats and with a multiple of 5 (to -20 in this case) to all skills. Physical Penalty is applied to all physical stats and with a multiple of 5 (to -25 in this case) to all physical skills. Furthermore, the Enemy would be wise to give up this battle, since all Injuries/Fatigue are added when checking Shock Roll dices, if he gets just a Minor wound (M1) the Shock Roll he must make would be 5d6 (G4+M1=5). And yeah, he must stop his bleeding since if BP (Blood Points) exceeds Endurance he dies.

Have I missed anything?

I edited myself some spelling and clarifications (sort of)

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

It's been a while since I've played standard HM3 rules, but if I remember correctly a G4 wound is an automatic fumble or stumble, so no roll would be necessary.

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Where I Store Harnmaster Stuff

of course it is.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

This is beautiful and what I am wanting...Thanks Everyone... and yes...I plan to use HM3..
How often is there blood loss with a wound (even with the optional rules) I was thinking of when they start bleeding to give them red glass tokens equal to there endurance and I get them back when they start to bleed out... when you have no more tokens..your dead..
I know you can get a bleeder when you get a serious wound but how often will the players get a serious wound..

Also the players are suppose to be heroes, Harn is very dangerous and bloody.. and I have no plans of armoring them up or anything.. What do most do?... have the avoid combat at all cost?.. give them Fate points to help them live?.. Because I plan to run a very low magic game, so there will be no magic potions laying around to help them out..

Is there any suggestions on an easy way to start the players and get them together quick, then a quick encounter of combat. Was thinking of starting them off in Prison in Golotha; They will be released if agree to help hunt down the old gang they where part of (maybe that's what put them in Jail) But the authorities are having trouble finding the gang, plus its located in Rethem. So they don't want to send a bunch of armored warriors into to a foreign state to hunt the gang and end up starting a war just looking for thieves.
Then just pick a few sheets out of the "FFF" file as the gang. Maybe give them loot equal
to bandit camp discussion someone posted in the Harn forums a while back.

When I played pure HM3 (I play a hybrid of HM3 and HMG) my players didn't like armours (to much encumbrance) so acted most of the time as "light foot", meaning they used shields, dodge, and Berilik. Not necessary in that order. Oh, yeah, and they used tactics (or at least they tried to).

Shield: because it is fairly easy to learn and gives a lot ML bonus when blocking.
Dodge: because one of the best defense is to not be where the strike is. Since there is no bonus in HM3 for dodge you need to have a really high Agility.

A shield is generally better since if you have an ML of 50 with a roundshield you will have a DML of 70, 50 is fairly easy to increase. If using dodge and have an EML of 70 (so it is equal to the shield skill) is much harder to increase. And blocking gives more DTA than dodging.

Most of my players used only light armours. Light armours do not protect you much, but they will in general decrease the injury one step and that can mean alot. Medium and heavy armours, sure, can protect you better but is it worth the encumrance. My players thought that it is to easy to get minors regardless of armour and three minor wounds is a 3d6 Shock Roll. It is better to avoid damage in the first place. Another bonus my players thought about in their light armours, was that they can flee better (hard to run in a scale in HM3).

The herb Berilik is anaesthetic and is used on wounds before a battle, if you have the time to apply it. It can also help some to avoid infections.

One time one of my players played a dwarf. He was so injuried after a battle (including bleeding) so when the group decided that they needed to move on anyway, they started to "grease" him up, because that was what it was. After that treatment they realized that this mix of dirt, sweat, ointment and blood was quite discusting. But he could walk for a while back to safety.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Since the character fumbled, the Attacker would gain a Tactical Advantage. This happens anytime a character fails a stumble, fumble, shock check, or weapon damage roll.

If after the Tactical Advantage he is still alive to get another turn, the next action on his turn will probably be a GROPE, to draw a new weapon or pick-up the old one that he fumbled.


I would also recommend you fluently understand the healing rules since that obviously dovetails with combat. This is where high injury point wounds put a characters life in peril because of infection.

Having someone with physician skill is really helpful. Once the Healing Rate (HR) is established, the option to cauterize wounds comes in very handy.


Regarding the example above, the G4 injury to the arm, it wouldn't be allowed cauterization in HM3 since it is a Grievous wound.

Well that depends on you as ref. I want a game with a story, so often fudge rolls behind my screen if amputating a PC at the neck or suchlike would ruin my carefully crafted storyline. But a serious wound every now and then to remind them of how painful it can be...and how long it takes to heal up, can be a useful GM tool.

yeah, I fudge rolls all the time and my players know it. It's only when I decide to roll in the open that they know they have "stepped in it".

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Ok, let me get this straight. These guys come in, trash the place, slap Agrik & Larani around, and the most intelligible thing they said was "Zog!"?

Used to fudge rolls every now and then, never do so now. All rolls are in the open.

Speaking with player hat on; would not want to play in a game where rolls are fudged. (Divine intervention acts as a player sourced 'get out jail' a lot of the time. When the rolls succeed that is )

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Don't get me wrong... I'm not easy on them. They have lost their share of blood, fingers, and eyes... and battled nasty infection without ant help from me. But I will not kill them off if it does not advance the story... sometimes. I'll make they burn piety points and give them quests to fulfill for saving their missrable hides.

But If I did not fudge some... they would be dead in the first session... I have unholy dice powers as a GM. As a player, I suck wind with the rest of them... even worse, when GMing, my dice rolling is to be feared.

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Ok, let me get this straight. These guys come in, trash the place, slap Agrik & Larani around, and the most intelligible thing they said was "Zog!"?

Really? I find death moderately uncommon in harnmaster...

What usually happens is that a PC is downed, and at the mercy of the succcess of his fellows...what sometimes happens is that all the pc's are downed and at the mercy of the NPC's....

When this occurs (and divine interevntion fails) I guess artisitic license could occur; although it would not be fudging as no roll involved......

However, in situations like that we enjoy nothing more than the old 50% chance of having throats slit by the bandits! Dice roll. Which as I say, I would never fudge

The thing is, most foes are not as murderous as bandits, and in most cases it would always seem pretty desperate to bump off downed foes. So less 'final' situations arise. The denoument of such complicated entanglements when the players recover can make good RPing material IMHO.

But then, I have tried to drift from timelined/goal orientated quests for the very reason that simulationist harnmaster throws spanners into such works...

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

I am not easy on them either. PCs die in my games. I just prefer PC deaths to usually mean something.

Not a Harn game but this is what I mean.

http://www.geocities.com/briansmaller/fiction_tetsuos_ride.htm

On the topic of HM3 rules, in my opinion there are some quite good house rules out there. I've spent some time amalgamating what I consider to be the best of them, and I think that they make our games more fun. They are not for everyone, but are worth considering in my opinion.

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Where I Store Harnmaster Stuff

The lethality and death spiral is much higher in HM3 compared to HM1, so I can see the temptation to fudge a few rolls to avoid turning a session into a nothing more than a meat grinder for PCs.

The HM3 Shock rules alone are devastating: rolling 1d6 for each point of Universal penalty.

When Counter-Striking the Defender gets to use Attack Class bonus. So a Gargun armed with a Mang (a hand and a half weapon) as a Defender can either Dodge and get no Defensive bonus, Block to get a Defensive bonus but risk testing an 11 Weapon Quality that if it fails will break the weapon and reward a Tactical Advantage to the Attacker, or CounterStrike and get the best bonus possible via the Attack Class. In HM3 I can see the Gargun choosing Counterstrike, in HM1 Dodge will have appeal because you get 3 Defense Class bonus. Anytime a PC comes across a foe in HM3 with a hand-and-a-half or two-handed weapon the Counterstrike table should instill a great deal of dread.

Then as pointed out above with healing and cauterization, you can't cauterize grievous wounds in HM3. Those are the wounds that benefit the most from increased HR. In HM1 you can cauterize these wounds which increases a characters survial chances a lot.

I hate to fudge dice... plus my players are always very noisy..suspicious .whatever. so I don't hide anything.. Years ago right after 3rd edition D&D came out I used power attack with a ogre to reduce the chances
of hitting the heroes. It back fired and I waxed the fighter right out of the gate.. I literately had to set down with him and let him fight toe to toe because he though the ogre was to powerful for its level.. No...I just got lucky in the game..and the red dice I used where now nick named the "blood dice"

Back on Combat.. One good hit to the head without a helmet and Player or NPC will be going down just like real life...So I should warn them before the game .. that the game is very realistic.

Also I am thinking of doing a Kill Bill kind of thing where they are hunting down the old gang finding one...then the next..

I play with a house rule that any previously TREATED injury only counts a 1 (and not a d6) on the shock roll. That helps a bunch with the shock roll.

Also... if you have a Fyvrian Shek-Pvar in the group...the fact that most wounds are not IMMEDIATELY fatal give them a chance to apply magical healing.

Lastly... as a GM (well... as a player, too) ... I roll horribly. The players like it... but they DO feel like they are playing with borrowed time. =)

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- Alan D. Nelson

To reduce player mortality without fudgeing dice rolls, try using fate points. Say each PC starts with two. You can either tap it or spend it. If you tap it, you can get a reroll. You can't tap it again until next session. If you spend it, it's gone for good, but you can turn a lethal blow into unconsciousness without a serious injury (dumb luck). You can only earn fate points by being heroic, truly awesome roleplaying and driving the story forward in a completely unforseen and entertaining way. Works great.

-Mark

Why not just use Piety and divine interventions rolls?

I mean, your PCs are saying their prayers before bedtime, right?

(You can also check out this thread for notes from some of our gaming sessions:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9189
Hopefully, they will give you an example of how combat could work.)

A walk through combat...
The knights charge forward to engage the enemy.
My PC (any of them) turns and runs for the woods. Maybe he dives in the river (I always take swimming).
I have played several HM3 combats and find death and impairments are too common, running is far smarter. OF course my GM doesn't fudge and I have a nasty 00 rolling habit.

We have a couple of sayings around our gaming table.

1) A '0' rarely comes alone.
(when you roll 100: dice '0' and '0')

2) Not even the King of Kaldor...
(when you roll 96-00 and fail with an easy task. "Against all odds" so to speak).

This last one is usually uttered by some oldies in my group when they fail a block or dodge against a nerd or if they have an 'Iron Constitution' and fail the 'H5 Healing Roll' against a common cold, making it very dangerous all of sudden.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

That's also what I wanted to hear.. Any suggestions on a nice warning statement for my players before I start the game.. Most have played RPGs for years but mostly D&D type. Actually thought have a NPC get taken out... then the rest would run..

gen -

The trick with HM combat is making the PCs realise that getting injured hurts and impairs their combat efficiency. In trad RPGs with Hit Points, they usually fight at peak efficiency until they run out of HPs.

In our last session two PCs were walking back to their Inn in Golotha from a drinking session with a mate. They got mugged by desperate locals who wanted to, as Obama put it "share the wealth around". I popped a -10% penalty on combat to the two PCs who were drunk. The locals were armed with clubs and jacks. One PC took a blow to the stomach which gave him a M1 wound. That -5% on combat sobered the PC up a lot - suddenly he was -5 for wound, -10 for being drunk, -5 for encumbrance. -20% of his dagger skill which was not that flash to start with and he was hitting on about 26% effective AML.

And then he should have looked around and said: "It is time for us to leave..." and beat feet out of the tavern.

They were walking home pissed. Old story but just as true in Golotha as on our own mean streets