It occured to me that a great utility for those of us fairly new to Harn might be a map based index to the resources that are out there for Harn. I'm thinking of something like the "My Map" facility on Google Earth where you can add different coloured pins with links to different sites.

What I'm thinking of is a map of Harn with different coloured pins. You zoom in on Tashal and you see pins for the Kingdom Of Kaldor module, Tashal module, Tashal Upper East Side fanon etc. Hover your mouse over a pin and you get a thumbnail description of the resource (and whether its free or not), click on the pin and you get taken to the appropriate place to download it.

I'm thinking it would allow new GM whose players wanted to move on from a location see what the nearby options were before developing his own new material. Or simply see how all the material that they have relates to each other geographically (I've got lots of material downloaded but I struggle to keep track of it in this sense).

I'm not sure this is possible (and it would be a lot of effort to catalogue all the canon and fanon out there and "stick" the pins in the map) but I think it would look pretty neat once it was done. Is such a thing possible?

What you need is a GIS system

It is certainly doable. I don't know what would be the best software to use these days. I suspect a annotated PDF.

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··<SableFox>··
AKA Jonathan M Davidson

Doesn't the interactive atlas of Kanday pretty much do this? For Kanday, I mean.

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"Your logic is flawless. But that doesn't mean you're right." - Tedd Good

You really need a GIS.

I would be generally interested in joining a group setting up a Harnic GIS.
There would be plenty of tasks:

- set up a server
- design a proper database schema
- convert available/ create map data for the interface
- geo-reference available articles
- create a suitable web interface

Anyone else interested? One could start with trying PostGIS.

Christian Düntgen

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

And here I demonstrate my complete ignorance - what is a GIS? I looked up PostGIS on wiki and understood about half the first sentence

And all that other stuff sounds rather complex (and expensive?). You can tell I work in a job where I depend upon someone else whenever my PC doesn't do what it's supposed to once I flick the "on" switch!

GIS means "geographic information system". It's a database system capable of processing geographic informations, like points of interest, regions, lines, etc.

As with a usual database system, you can create databases (tables), update the databases concurrently (e.g. inserting, deleting or changing stored data), and query the database (e.g. ask for items of a certain type (canon/fanon articles), items connected to a certain region, select all rivers in a query region, etc.)

The sytem can also be installed on a webserver, allowing for a web-interface.



The software itself comes for free. One needs a webserver allowed to run the according database software - and some geeks willing to manage it

The advantage of such a system is, that
- you can recruit volunteers for updating the data (better than doing everything by yourself)
- you can directly refer to resources on the WWW (e.g. Lythia.com)
- it is very flexible. Once you created the database, you can easily change functionality


Christian

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

A GIS might be overkill. But you need someone with the rights to the "stuff" that allows you to put this online. As you may possibly know, the UGMT contains such a feature without going online.
But it is not very easy to add stuff and it only contains fanon, basically for the reason given above - I don't have more rights.

One main advantage of database systems is, that you can store data apart from programs. Using a free database system, you could put all the data inside and geo-reference each piece of information. As far as I know, MySQL and Postgres both contain some basic geometric datatypes, like point, line, polyline or polygon allowing for the basic functionality required for an interactive index. You could use SQL (using ODBC/ JDBC) to access data from the program (e.g. asking for articles "located" near a certain point). Then the software developer does not need to care about how to integrate new articles. You could have extra editors just maintaining the "content".

Also, you could have several different applications using the very same database...

Xris

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

There is a lot to be said here. What you are advocating is a separation of content and client/server application. That does not require GIS.
Setting up a webserver is dead easy. For prototyping you don't need to be connected, and you can run dyndns. Writing the application is not easy on the other hand and the more high-end the technology you propose, the harder it is to get people. I'm not trying to dissuade you, but that is the bottom line. Or you get some other major endorsement/support.

You are right: it doesn't require a GIS.



What we face here is the following problem: On the one hand, we have a growing heap of content. On the other side, some people come up with nice ideas on how to make all that information accessible and more usable (mainly to writers and GMs). Whoever starts with such a cool idea, and tries implementing it, doesn't find a critical mass of supporters, because to use the available information, it need to be recoded to an appropriate data format. Nobody likes to do that work, because it is neither interesting nor otherwise rewarding.

Wouldn't it be nice to have the content be represented in some standardized format, so that you and everybody else could import and integrate it into his application faster and with less work effords? This is just, what databases (relational or XML) have been made for.

So in the end, I think it would be a good thing to have a repository with as much content as possible transformed to such a common data format. Of cause, it would take some effort to collect requirements from (potential) software developers and users, to develop a usable data schema, and to migrate data to it.

I was just asking for people, who would be interested in such a project. If no one helps with it, the project is just stillborn.

Xris

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

[quote="Xris"]
What we face here is the following problem: On the one hand, we have a growing heap of content. On the other side, some people come up with nice ideas on how to make all that information accessible and more usable (mainly to writers and GMs). Whoever starts with such a cool idea, and tries implementing it, doesn't find a critical mass of supporters, because to use the available information, it need to be recoded to an appropriate data format. Nobody likes to do that work, because it is neither interesting nor otherwise rewarding.
[/quote]

I personally don't see that as the big problem. Other projects have shown that people are willing to cooperate, if the converter tools are reasonable. I see the main problem in obtaining the rights for the content. The IPR issues are stalling projects such as this.

[quote="Xris"]
Wouldn't it be nice to have the content be represented in some standardized format, so that you and everybody else could import and integrate it into his application faster and with less work effords? This is just, what databases (relational or XML) have been made for.
[/quote]

Well a simple file system can do the trick as well. The point is the "standardized" format. Some people would argue that PDF is standard enough. Setting aside the standard vs industry-standard discussion, the point to be seen is that to convert from the current publication format to transformation format you need to add information. (You will also lose some, I guess, but that is not important here.) But who will do so, if there are CG, Kelestia, and/or the fandom author to obtain permission before you publish. Of course, you could try and get away with a subset of these entities.

I did so for my UGMT2 project, but I didn't care for any IPR, so only I can use it. I actually did care for the UGMT, so you could try and extract what you need and assume the agreement extends to your stuff. UGMT works without database and relies on the filesystem only, but the files are XML.

Whatever happened to Harnwiki?

[quote="Xris"]
So in the end, I think it would be a good thing to have a repository with as much content as possible transformed to such a common data format. Of cause, it would take some effort to collect requirements from (potential) software developers and users, to develop a usable data schema, and to migrate data to it.
[/quote]

I think such a project would be marvelous indeed. Navigating like google maps across harn, with a search engine, or Wikipedia is fascinating.

Perhaps we could try to figure it out. First: what kind of entities (categories) should be modeled?

1) characters
2) settlements (different categories?)
3) rivers (different categories?)
4) roads (different categories?)
5) points of interest (peaks, caves, natural monuments, ...)
6) field names, geographic areas (forests, landscapes, ...)
7) (political) boundaries/ areas
...

Second: What possible features do these entities have?
- ID
- name
- category
- geographic location (geo reference)
- geometry
- temporal information (when is the information valid)
- original publications (if IPR allow)
- references to publications
- cross references to other objects (by IDs)
...

Do we need concurrent versions of objects (e.g. fanon/ canon, items with temporal development)?

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

My original plan for this topic was to grab screen shots of each map region from the atlas - which includes all the major cities/landmarks, and add color-coded "stick-pins" to each area that would identify work done.

Blue: Info available
Green: No work done
Red: Project underway
Purple: No info available

Then you could simply roll-over with mouse to get info on the area/city with where it was available from.

Below is one quick edited image of Chybisa, which every land region already looks like this one to keep the focus on that area alone.

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"Honor is earned through the balance of peace and harmony, yet to the Master all eyes are open to possibilities".

Silverleaf 1981

Settle for something simple first and make it expandible. That will give a feel for the magnitude of the task. How do you factor in Silverleaf comments?
Other than that, I'd go with (2) and A, B, D, H. First problem: which geo ref? To the Kelestia map? Where are the geo coordinates since Greenwhich is missing and we have no true curvature information on Kelestia?



You are immediately in IPR waters. Do you think we can get Kelestia permission of all of Harn (Chelemby, ...) on that scale? A scanned-in and modified Harn map with all Harndex locations is already available in the UGMT. It misses your color codes/pins and does not sport modern navigation aka seemless scrolling. But the geo information is there.

BTW, I don't see any pins on your map - but I also have trouble understanding your last sentence.

Not much in the way of maps and download links but down to local level and "complete" as of 2008. http://www.phantasia.org/miju/rpg/harn/net.html (needs java enabled).

I'm liking this! If we can get things going with (2), A, B, D and H, then expanding should be easier than trying to fit everything from the start, yes.

Addressing the problems, we should IMO remember that we're talking about a fantasy world and there actually is no one single truth. Therefore there's bound to be error from different sources. Now, I'm not very familiar with different coordinate systems, but according to quick research (PDF here, chapter 3 & appendix B) we could define the center point in the Kelestia map as "Greenwhich" (as it is in the WeatherMaster data set available from Bill Gant (if I remember correctly)). Using that point as reference, we could then define (roughly evaluate) the 3D ellipsoidal coordinates for a point that is mapped better (for example Cherafir, as the capital of Melderyn) and use that as a reference point from there on out. Ellipsoidal coordinates can be converted to x,y,z cartesian coordinates, if needed. I hope I'm not totally full of BS now...

The problem is (I think) the coordinate systems and projections in computer programs. Can you define a new projection (i.e. Kelestia, the planet) to it? We could IMO assume that Kelestia is round, and not a bi-axial ellipsoid. On the other hand, we could assume that Kelestia is the same geometry as Terra, but only scaled down (Kelestia is, if I recall correctly, smaller than Terra).

I'd recommend using the Kelestia Harn regional map for georeferencing (at least) the major settlements.

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~Laudant illa, sed ista legunt~
~You may leave Hârn, but Hârn never leaves you!~

There is what is called an "interrupted somewhat projection" around, which would define some kind of projection to calculate "the truth", that can be used to work with. I am pretty sure that could give us coordinates that theoretically are accurate. (Didn't remember that before. I'm pretty sure that using centerpoint projection of the Harnmap is wrong. Didn't do the math, though, and it should be insignificant with respect to weather) The other (IPR) problem remains: just putting N 34,567° E 12,987° as output or pins on a white page isn't worth much

Maybe we should go to Kelestia and seek permission, but they guard their maps pretty good. But a scale as the sample given, they might allow. Then the different projections might not even matter

Yes, the "Interrupted Epizenithal Projection", available in Kethira 4, 6, 7 and 8 in different themes, in the Harnworld book (CG5001). There's also a more accurate map, the map of Lythia, with Harn in the NW corner, with Lat/Lon -lines (in CG5001). I actually meant these maps, not the Harnmap. Sorry if I was too unclear. I was at work on a break and didn't have any material available.

I have since realized that this is a trivial problem in the application you are suggesting/people are requesting. I guess this is roughly what is wanted!? There are two problems with this particular solution. 1) Acquiring the image for the map background (IPR). 2) the service above is limited (like so). Of course that's only one ready solution and is based on the Google maps API. Perhaps there's some other way to utilize the Google API?

I suggest asking for Kelestia's permission to use some kind of an "impaired" map as the base. I guess some kind of a solution could be negotiated.

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~Laudant illa, sed ista legunt~
~You may leave Hârn, but Hârn never leaves you!~

For a prototype the free account would be sufficient and for the purpose of the original poster too. On the other hand you'd be stuck with the Google API. I don't have experience with it. Do you? I don't know how hard it would be to write a server for it. That would get you away from the restrictions cited - whatever new restrictions would be.

No, I don't. I'm not a server wizard either. That's why I usually try to find the ready made alternatives.

In my opinion the only feasible plan in the long run is a database that can be updated by multiple authors, or "anyone", because solo projects tend to die out (usually) due to time restrictions. Now this takes us back to some kind of a web interface and possibly a GIS server. I've only done GIS stuff (digitizing and making reports) offline on a desktop with MapInfo and ArcGIS at school and don't have a clue how to set up an application for web use. Besides the know-how limitations, there's also the IPR stuff that pretty much prevents doing more advanced and fancy stuff otherwise than by and for yourself.

Now I guess I could make a prototype map using some kind of a Harn map as a base and adding some pins to mark a few places with articles about them. But this isn't feasible unless people are willing cough up at least $35 per year (for max. 60 pins on a map), or write a similar application for our own use. As I said, I don't have the skills (or time or energy at the moment) for that.

I'm trying to think what to do, but somehow it feels I'm just prancing around the problem and getting nowhere. Any other ideas?

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~Laudant illa, sed ista legunt~
~You may leave Hârn, but Hârn never leaves you!~

Something between the CGI CC2 electronic map of Kanday and KP's various interactive atlases, but online and with a yearly suscribing fee allowing log-on to an IMS (internet map server) where you can zoom, pan, hide/unhide layers and perhaps pass some queries, etc. Big bucks to develop that, less so if KP's vector maps can be smoothly integrated, leaving mainly the development of the server and database.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Well, what we would like to have is basically 2 things:

(1) a database providing geo-referenced information. It could store and deliver "free" stuff completely, whereas "IPR-covered" stuff could be restricted to a short description/ summary and reference (or link) to the original stuff/ the providers web shop's product description. All the server does is getting queries and delivering results.

(2) a interactive visual interface, displaying a map (which raises that IPR problem) with symbols for geo-referenced data on it and allowing to query for more information from the above database. The interface just generates queries, sends them to the database server and gets the results.

So, how does this help? We ask the IPR holder(s) to provide at least part (2). Since the schema would allow for additional sales, s/he might be interested in this.

What do you think?

Xris

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

I feel like I've had this discussion before

I'd strongly suggest basing any such work on Kelestia's maps, because I know the work done by the CHMP and some earlier projects in the mapping/geoinfo realm revealed some peculiarities that were communicated to Robin, and which I know Jeremy and company have taken into account. Plus, their maps are (conveniently) already digital.

Searching the HarnForum should reveal some useful information. I couldn't locate the Harn Lat-Lon Project stuff online but I'll try to find my copy and put it up somewhere (it may even be buried somewhere on lythia.com).

Anyway, feel free to bug me repeatedly (keith@keithmann.com) on the subject if you need anything. I respond best to squeaky wheels these days (just ask my kids).

EDIT: Here's the HLLP stuff: http://keithmann.com/hllp/

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Keith Mann
I really must get around to changing my .sig

Great stuff Keith, thanks!!

What software did you use to work with the svg-files? Apparently they aren't supported as data files in my mapping programs. Haven't yet found a neat way to convert them to .dxf or the like. Also, my PaintshopPro won't import the file and claims it's an invalid .svg file.

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~Laudant illa, sed ista legunt~
~You may leave Hârn, but Hârn never leaves you!~

The SVG was generated by some Java stuff I wrote. Sorry if it's poorly-formed...I never tested it any further than displaying it with the Adobe SVG plug-in and with Batik. If you figure out what the problem is please let me know and I'll make sure everything gets updated.

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Keith Mann
I really must get around to changing my .sig