was not sure which of the various (and many) Topics to submit this under, so thought I would finally start my own Topic.

I stated my view in 2003 when the dispute between Mr Crossby and CGI first blew up, but here it is again.........

Harn (and all it encompasses) has moved well beyond what Mr Crossby first created and CGI first published due to the extensive efforts of several fans. once again, without the work of the fanon creators (and the loyalty of Harniacs) Harn would be the greatest RPG that died in 1987.

I doubt not that Mr Crossby created Harn in its infancy, but I remember several names being credited with writing the Encyclepidia Harnicas as well as the first kingdom modules (please do not take this as lessening the labour involved in creating such a work as Harn, Mr Crossby)

as for legal rights and the future of Harn both cannon and fanon, try this:
grant credit to Mr Crossby as the creator
grant credit to CGI as the publisher (after all, they kept Harn in the hospital after Mr Crossby left CGI)
all fanon that acknowledges both is good to go!

as to royalties and the like, that is between Mr Crossby and CGI, but I would caution Mr Crossby as others have, you come dangerously close to killing your creation, remember, CGI kept Harn on life support when they could have easily dropped it and the fannon creators breathed new life into Harn, bringing it back from the brink

as for CGI, I agree (being one to hopefully make money on my "intellectal property" sometime in the future) some royalty payment is not only fair but ethical

but ultimately, I believe that Harn has moved past both its intial creation and publication. I, again (as I did in 2003) encourage the fans to sieze Harn!! maybe some of the great fanon creators should sue for copyright of Harn!!

Mr Crossby created Harn, CGI published it, one could not have brought Harn to the world without the other, but both came close to letting it die (if they did not all but abandon Harn at worst and neglected it at best), the FANS kept it alive, they feed it new material, they bought it where ever they could find it, they discussed it endlessly and extolled its greatness to any and all who would listen (I always said it was my favorite ruleset and enviroment).

Mr Crossby and CGI, do what is right, take your dispute over royalties to a third party, divide the world between the two (Harn, Ivinia and already published areas to CGI, the rest of the world to Mr Crossby) and grant rights to create fanon material to some of the great fanon creators and lets get back to enlarging Harn!!

I was never a modest man and consider myself to be a part of that extra oxygen when Hârn was almost at the bottom of the sea. One party has ackowledged that to me several times and even offered me an extra job as a mapper. I have no doubt that they endorse the fans even if they do not want the fans to make better stuff than they do (that seemed to have slipped through their fingers though when Kerry is concerned). I am of course living on old memories and do not know the current policies.

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I will return, oh yes, I will return...

Certainly from the late 80s and into the early 90s Harn was developed largely on the e-mail list "Harnlist". I don't think there was much if any product developed that wasn't fan based in that time. The "Harn Page" was the home of much of the material.

I remember that Robin was involved in the Harnlist development but nothing monetary.

In the mid 90s CG decided to revitalize Harn and started Harn Core. Robin kind of stepped aside at that point - or rather there was a split in directions. CG with Core (then 2nd and 3rd editions) and Robin with Harnmast Gold and Kelestia.com. I think CG felt the Gold split hurt distribution for both but most bought whatever was brought to market by anyone. Harnmaster Gold's GM and Beastery were selved at that point probably until 2 years ago when the licencing issue cropped up.

My point being that I felt Robin was not only the creator but it was also Robin who kept Harn alive in the dry years until CG showed up again with a new plan (in about 94) with HM Core.

While CG was making Core and 2nd edition Robin was restrained from making HM Gold and now he is still selling Harn.

Just to give Robin credit where due: he may not have been obvious but he was always involved.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I recognize that you're clearly on one side, but I don't think your memory is quite accurate. Perhaps not a prodigious output, but more than not much if any:

1989 - Kiraz
1991 - Shorkyne
1992 - Battlelust, Castles of Orbaal
1993 - Curse of Hlen

There may be others. These are the ones I found in five minutes of looking and don't even include the Harnlores.

That shows how much you do not know... CGI were dependant on Robin during those days to finish the projects named above. He did mostly work all by himself. The slow speed of these projects were a start of this whole mess with HMC and HMG. The use of other people came later when CGI decided that there was no way they would keep publishing at such a slow rate. Of course there is probably more but saying that Robin is the sole reason for keeping it alive, is IMO wrong. Search for new ways of making maps and other interests was slowing the production down. Do not feed a horse unless it is hungry...

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I will return, oh yes, I will return...

You call that "much"?

In the early 1980s every kingdom of Harn, every Earthmaster site, every tribe and region, practiaclly everything that was ever published for Harn was released.

Total everything new that has been printed since (subtracting the rehashed stuff from before) and you have very little in comparison - and most of that was after CG decided to reenter the market (which I think was about 94).

Indeed the fans did keep Harn alive and it was never completely abandoned by CG. Robin was involved as well - I remember his contrabutions much more then CG's though those years.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

For the love of... Please folks, CGI did not reenter the market. They were dependant on Robin to produce new items.

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My name is Patrick and I'm a Hârn Fan even if I do not worship at the Altar of the Misty Isles anymore...

I call that averaging a product a year - no one ever thought enough Harn was being published at any time I can recall.


Which, by your own admission, you have not seen? I'm not sure you can really say then.