I am getting ready to start a new campaing. Middle Earth using HM3 rules. I have already written a Midgaad supplement, but I figure this is a great opportunity to get it updated. You can find the original at http://www.usermode.org/docs/midgaad.zip .

Has anyone used this supplement besides me? Have they discovered any problems with it. It doesn't include a lot of cultural information, so I am planning to beef that part up. Anything else I should add?

Thanks...

p.s. Not sure if this is the right section, so if it isn't, please move it.

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Seems like a good supplement. It wasn't around yet when I did my ME campaign. I based my ME campaign in the 4th age (after the fall of Sauron and all the movies) when students of magic were again able to learn without becoming targets of the dark lord.

Rather than just changing the names of the convocations for magic I made an entirely different style of magic that I use for Elves and Dwarves on Harn and for all practitioners of magic on ME. It is based on HM1/HMG magic styles but all users are unattuned to any convocation (-6 SB to all instead of 0 to -12 primary to diametric) but starting with just a single area open to them.

If you are using HMC style magic though I don't imagine it would be easily convertible or useful.

Whatever you do Sorcery and Necromancy are important aspects to include in any ME campaign as most practitioners allowed by Sauron to live were on his side and most magical references may relate to one/both. Sauron tought a number of gifted persons. The other practioners were the elves (who don't consider magic "magic" and say humans have no ability to learn it even if they was), the Dwarves (who don't seem to have magic but have produced some of the most powerful legendary items), and the Istari (who are demigods/Maiar and not really wizards per se but could probably teach magic if they cared to).


The Simarillion and the LoTRs books are the best references of course. In the 4th age those books should actually be obtainable in ME since Bilbo and Frodo actually did write them. Since it is imposiable for anything but a Valar to actually kill a Maiar the spirit of Sauroman and whatever is left of the spirit of Sauron may one day rise again in ME (not to mention the 2 Blue Wizards and Radagast the Brown who likely never have left). The One Ring was destroyed and the "lesser" rings were all reduced in power but they may be scattered all over Mordor. Whatever happened to Sauroman's Ring (he made independently of the others and unveiled to Gandalf before imprisoning him) was never mentioned.

As far as I can tell the elves of ME came to Harn as part of the Elven Migrations even before the 1st Age of ME. The Dwarves got to Harn either through a godstone (perhaps escaping the fall of the Western continent - end of the 1st Age? / Years of the Sun) or may have appeared on Harn at the same time as they did in ME (earlier in the 1st age). (According to KIRAZ it seems likely that they came from ME by godstone and were in communication with the Dwarves of ME for some time before loosing contact.) Either way on Harn they first appeared in the city of MERDAIN (Lythia p11). Either way Harn 720 should fall somewhere probably in the 3rd or 4th age of ME.

Middle Earth Roleplaying (MERP) from ICE is a good resource. Not very accurate for Tolkien's ME but they have tons of maps, ideas, magic items, histories. I am sure you can find tons of these materials online for free (MERP is long gone).


What time period were you planning to use and what kind of campaign?

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If you don't have this yet:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I am going to run an early 4th group of dwarves in a campaign to retake Moria.

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Cyril laugh at puny human!

Cool!

Since Maiar can't be killed and Balrogs are Maiar the Balrog may be imprisoned somewhere after Gandalf defeated it.

Moria seems like a likely spot.

IMC. I left the Balrog imprisoned in the deepest trench in the bottom of Moria and had a Godstone down there as well. Even though that makes no more sense than a Godstone in the botom of Kiraz - or Azadmere - there are godsones in both those places (and just about every dwarven kingdom on Kethira).

Known locations of Godstones in ME according to Pymel the Meticulous (IIRC): "Where dwells the White, the Black and the Grey one - and too the Fiery Fiend - there they stand abroding" (that's from memory).

Gandalf "the Grey" was the only Istari not to put down roots though so the "Grey Havens" might be a good substitute. The others seem pretty self explanatory though.

Of course a ME campaign more true to Tolkien than Harnmaster may well omit Godstones entirely.

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Maiar can be killed. Gandalf definitely died, but was sent back. Saruman died, and his shade was blown into the east. I think you meant to say "ultimately destroyed" rather than "killed". The Balrog is dead, and at best is but a haunt in Moria.

But are there other evils imprisoned in the deeps of Moria? The demise of the Balrog leaves a power vacuum that something else could exploit. Or maybe the balrog had lesser lieutenants that would still give the party a run for its money (helkaraukor).



I never quite understood that reference. But I am thinking it refers to Minas Tirith (white), Minas Morgul (black), Lindon (grey), and Moria (fiery fiend). In any case, there definitely is one in my p-Moria. I don't think this campaign will encounter it though.

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I'd be intersted in seeing the updated site when finished. I have only used (as a GM) inter planet travel once... that's when the Morsindar Queen opened a rift that alowed khamal the Easterling through as Saurons rep.

As a player, the party mage botched a "gate of kemdel" spell and sent up to the foot of bara-dur... we did not stay long.
As i recall the party did not hang around to meet khamal either... but ran screaming.

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Ok, let me get this straight. These guys come in, trash the place, slap Agrik & Larani around, and the most intelligible thing they said was "Zog!"?

I'm not planning on updating a "site". Just the PDF rules for Midgaad.

The only time I did a Harn/ME crossover, was when my first HM group played around with the godstone at Tesien. Random dice sent them off world, so I quickly chose a godstone deep in Moria as a destination. They ended up in a tiny room off of the Endless Stair, and due to my description the Ilviran priest was certain we had landed in Araka-Kalai. He convinced the group to head down the stairs in search of the bottom and the Court of Ilvir. The rather large gargun infestation convinced him of his error.

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The various "Hobbit Histories" written by Bilbo and Frodo are frought with errors of perspective and lack of knowledge. From the point of view of the traveling hobbits the Balrog was "killed" and so was Sauron and Sauroman - but they also thought Gandalf was a wise old human.

A Maiar's physical form can be killed but Maiar cannot be destroyed (except by a Valar and then with some effort).

Sauron was "killed" in the Fall of Numenor only to return again later in ME. He was then "killed" again by Gil-Galad and Elendil. In the first age Luthien threatened to kill his form and send his ghost screaming naked back to his master. Sauron was hurt by the destruction of the One Ring because his put so much of his power into it otherwise he would rise again just as powerful as before.

Gandalf wasn't "killed" in the fight with the Balrog. In the books he didn't even specifically "die" but whether he fled his physal form or it "died" either way he did come back as Gandalf the White - relieved of many of the restrictions he had before. If he actually was "killed" perhaps the difference is that being "sent back" meant he didn't have to wait 100s of years to return in a new physical form but he may have just returned to the form he left sitting there while he visited the Valar in Valinor.

The Balrog may not be imprisoned but, if not, he can certainly return one day. Perhaps not within the lifespan of a hobbit though.

Any person who struck at the Numenorean (human) Witch-King (Nazgul-King) with a weapon the weapon was destroyed and the person was slain. Sauroman was an Istari with a self made Ring of Power - and Sauroman was killed by Wormtounge with a simple dagger? It could be possible I suppose but it would certainly not be permanent (I tend to assume he surrendered the physical form voluntarily).

That leaves a number of old, supposedly "dead" personalities availiable to arise again in the 4th Age.

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When I say "killed" I mean that the physical body has deceased. This is no different than the rest of Kelestia. Someone may die in Kaldor, but their consciousness/soul/whatever continue to exist in Yashain.

I am playing LOTR Online, and I end up fighting a lot of old Cardolan princes who were officially pronounced dead, embalmed, and deposited in a barrow centuries earlier. Some of them are quite mobile.

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One challenge with Middle Earth and Harn is character creation. From everything that I have read, there is no serfdom in Middle Earth (at least NW Middle Earth where LOTR took place). That's a minor problem, but it means that the current random tables don't quite work. In addition, the sun signs should probably be different (or just not used).

Another small issue is that guilds seem to have less power than in Harn. I can imagine that they would be found in the cities, but outside of the cities they are less prominent. Part of the reason could be that most of Middle Earth is at an earlier time era than Harn. Rohan and others seem to be more dark age in setting. Gondor is more imperial.

One thing that I would do, in order to keep the epic feel of LOTR is give PC's some sort of bonus points that they can use to help them out at difficult times. Decipher's LOTR RPG used Courage Points. I think that 1 point can raise or lower a roll by up to 3 points. That way a normal roll can become a critical (or a critical failure can become a normal failure).

One other thing is that morality is very important in the LOTR as evident in the way that the ring of power corrupts people. I think that a system similar to what was done in LOTR RPG to handle corruption is very useful. The Morality stat should have a greater effect in Middle Earth.

To me, it seems pretty obvious that the Godstone locations are white = Saruman/Orthanc, black = Sauron/somewhere in Mordor, most likely under his tower (forget the name) - theoretically Mirkwood, but unlikely, grey = Grey Havens would be the best bet, Gandalf was affiliated with them too, and fire = the Balrog/Moria. All locations where Maiar dwell. If it was "in the cities of white, black, grey and fire", or "where stand the white, ..." I'd be more inclined to the Minas Tirith etc. explanation, but it's definitely a valid interpretation for your p-Midgaad.

As to killing Maiar, I'd most likely play it so that the physical body of the Balrog is indeed destroyed (and maybe still lying around somewhere, although it's unlikely the PCs could get to it "through fire and water"), but it still exists as a fiery and dark ethereal somewhere, able to manifest and quite incredibly powerful from the point of view of most, if not all HM characters. "But a haunt" is underestimating it's power.

Re: serfs and the culture: IIRC Imperial doesn't have a serf result at all, but just a 25% slave class result? For Gondor, maybe make those 25% serfs, but have a relatively small amount of them. Could make for some weird social dynamics though, with that few serfs. Or you could try modeling something based on Azadmere, I don't think they have serfs either.

Regarding tech, at least the Numenoreans were way ahead of anything (human) on Harn IMO, the dwarves are at more or less the same level in both I guess. Orthanc and maybe some other sites I can't remember have a strong possibility for Earthmaster sites; the tower itself probably isn't, but even it's builders have been forgotten in time (so most probably not the Numenoreans or elves).

edited for spelling

I also went with white = Saruman/Orthanc, black = Sauron/tower, grey = Grey Havens - but I like your ideas as well.

Both Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul were Neumanorian weren't they? If association Numanorian = Earthmasters (posiably powerful enough) could probably work best - but still wouldn't explain Moria.

Orthanac, Black Tower and Moria though could just be random places of power that the Earthmasters used before anyone else got to Middle Earth.


I'm thinking Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul are geographically too close for reasonable earthmaster sites. Orthanac, Black Tower, Moria and the Grey Havens though are nicely spread out though.

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An alternative way to look at the "corruption": in some ways The Dark Lord used the power of the One Ring to force the ring wearers to enter the spirit-world where he could control them better. The rings of power wouldn't normally make people invisible by default but by the dark lord's will every time someone put on the One Ring they entered the spirit-world. The Dwarves "couldn't be made to fade" but Sauron found he could use the rings to twist their greed and suspicion. The Elven Rings were never touched by him and the elves removed them until he lost the One. Once he lost the One they went back to using their rings - free of the compulsion to fade and able to use the rings in the ways they were intended.

The wearers of the One Ring - even not wearing the ring all the time - were slowly being drawn permanently into the shadow realm like the Nazgul. Bilbo talked about "feeling thin - like butter spread over too much bread". His physicality in the normal world was running out and soon he'd be come invisible permanently like the Nazgul. His high morality, using the ring as little as possible, and only using it for petty jokes (not world domination) helped him resist the ring and corruption for a much longer time.

In many ways his battle was a long term mental conflict with Sauron/the one ring. As he was drawn farther and farther into the spirit-world where Sauron's influence became stronger and stronger... also as Frodo came closer to Mount Doom (and/or Sauron?) the One Ring became ever stronger and more dominating.

Frodo getting stabbed by the Morgul Blade was a terriable thing to happen since that also would have made him "fade". Even without the ring he would become a wraith the book implied and become subject to the Nazgul (Sauron?) as a weak-wraith with no ring.

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Okay, this is just too good to miss.

I like the idea of associating Maiar with the godstones.

Keeping that in mind, it is IMO fairly clear that Saruman/Orthanc=white and Balrog/Moria=The Fiery One.

Fairly clear is also that Black=Sauron/tower. However, I'd like to suggest the possibility of the tower not being Barad-dur (the Black tower) but Dol Guldur ("Hill of Sorcery", Sauron's fortress in Mirkwood). Wikipedia claims "Tolkien suggests that Sauron settled on Dol Guldur as the focus for his rise during the period before the War of the Ring in part so that he could search for the One Ring in the Gladden Fields just up the river." referencing "See for example, The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", p. 302.".

The grey is more unclear than the others. Gandalf the Grey didn't have a permanent residence and traveled a lot, but indeed had connections with Cirdan at Grey Havens. Pymel the Meticulous might of course not have known this and referenced Grey Havens as Gandalf's residence. So I'd accept Gandalf/Grey Havens=grey.

All of the above are Maiar and are IMO consistent with being references to the time in the Third Age, before the War of the Rings.

Men of Numenorian descent i.e. the Dunedain, who lived in Arnor and Gondor (Minas Tirith), are not in my opinion strong enough to be considered Earthmasters. Numenorians, maybe but unlikely, unless you go back in time when the Island of Numenor was still on the face of the Middle-Earth and the people not corrupt (the White tree standing).

There are more possibilities, if you go waaay back in time, even to the First Age, and consider for example Gondolin as the white spot, Morgoth as the black one, Gothmog (lord of the balrogs) or Glaurung (the father of the dragons) as the fiery one.. Dunno about the grey one in this case though. However, if the Gargun are somehow related to Sauron's orcs, then this kind of an interpretation is not probable.

One last thing. IMO it doesn't matter if the places are scattered or not. What matters more is the story! If you've got a plausible reason for both Barad-Dur in Mordor and Minas Tirith in Gondor, go for it. After all, they're even places of opposite alignments!

Edit. Post #100 btw, woohoo!

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~Laudant illa, sed ista legunt~
~You may leave Hârn, but Hârn never leaves you!~

Some random notes: Thingol was the king of the grey elves in Doriath; Galadriel was the head of the White Council; The White Tree was in Minas Tirith; Orthanc was black; Moria means "black pit".

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Cyril laugh at puny human!