James Mishler has written about his views on RPG publishing and its future: The Doom of RPGs: The Rambling and The Rambling II: Replies and Ripostes.

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Running: AD&D / When a star falls
Running: MERP / Woses of the black wood

Mr. Mishler gets a whole lot of hate for some reason. He seems to make a fairly reasonable argument, but I noticed he quotes a lot of people that seem to be refering to some other tangent of his.

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A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.

Of course he is hated. He's out there popping the bubbles of all those people who think that high quality gaming materials should be free or nearly so. What web sites have those people been browsing? lythia.com?

Thinking about this, it makes me realize how unusual CGI's business model is. (And I'm pretty sure they came into it by accident, not plan.) They encourage us fans to churn out the smaller "modules", where the price expectations are so low that they couldn't possibly be profitable. And they concentrate on items where the production values can justify a profitable price - e.g. maps, kingdom modules.

I hope it keeps working.

I wonder if Harn fans would actually be prepared to pay the "real price" for products. By real price I mean one where all people involved in production and all stakeholders recieved a fair reward for their effort. Somehow, I think not. People would just rely on fanon, probably to the detriment of the game.

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··<SableFox>··
AKA Jonathan M Davidson

I for one have always been willing to shell out top dollar for good products. Were CGI to offer me the Mederyn Module, and the 2nd Staff of Fanon module (or is it Curse of Hlen?) priced accordingly due to inflation and production costs, I would gladly pay it.

I do not think I am alone in this, considering how often I hear of price complaints from harniacs (who still buy the stuff) in Europe.

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A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.

One of the most classic adventures in RPG history is "Masks of Nyarlathotep" for Call of Cthulhu. It was originally a boxed set. If CGI combined the Staff of Fannon, Kiraz, and Curse of Hlen into a boxed set like "Masks" with lots of high quality stuff, I could see people paying for it.

In principle, boxed sets I think would shift.

However, if compiled of the aforementioned adventures I can see it inciting riots as much as reviving the gaming industry

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

There is something about a well designed box that caputred my imagination. The Dungeon & Dragons Expert rules set that was in a blue box was a favorite of mine. It came with dice and a module.

The first RPG style game I ever played was Boot Hill. Some older kid at school I rode this bus home with taught me how to play. The whole experience blew me away. Even just opening up his box and glancing over the materials was a fun experience. I vividly remember to this day him unfolding the map and placing counters on it and then rolling dice as we started to shoot at each other.


My guess is from an early age we start to associate things in boxes as sometimes being games. When you learn Checkers or Candyland you have to open the box first. Even things like puzzels come in boxes.

So to a young person, something in a box = possible fun stuff

This is where the RPG industry might have made a mistake moving away from boxes. I remember bringing the Star Frontiers boxed set to school, and many of kids were curious what it was. Afterall something in a box had to be somewhat cool. Kids wanted to open it and look inside. If you bring something like the Advanced Dungeon and Dragons hardback books to school, the thing looks like a school text book. Obviously not the artwork, but the fact it is a book, and you associate that with school work, not playtime fun. Even the old modules were cool where you had the outside cardboard cover contain the maps.

Got to ask this about the guy Mishler, who died and put him incharge? From talking with the folks at my local game store, sales of D&D 4.0 have tanked, not only because of the current economic mess but because it was a badly designed product. Now I don't own any 4.0 product, nor will I. The closest thing that I have to the Open Game License (OGL) is the Castles and Crusades system. If Hasbro does something stupid like pull the OGL, there could/maybe lawsuits out the arse, partly because the OGL is somewhat 'in the public domain'. And if Hasbro did pulll the OGL, there would numerous small and good RPG companies that would cease to exist, leaving the adventure game market with only a few systems that MIGHT still be around. Frankly, of late I've gotten a bit retro, Classic Traveller (found a site where one can download virturally all the books in PDF format,PM me for info please), went back to an easier time though I do have PDF copy of Mongoose's version of Traveller and I like what I see.

That's an interesting point. I've got some real issues with paying $30 USD for one book, plus another $15 in shipping because the book isn't available anywhere else. Even the bundle that Columbia offers doesn't strike me as a deal. Yet when you say boxed set, and include those three titles, suddenly I'm willing to shell out some good money...

It is difficult to pay the proper pricing to Columbia or Kelestia for their products, because they are significantly more than what you would pay for a WOTC book. Until this date, it has been Lythia that has kept me buying, not the 'official' vendors. I don't see away around this to get to paying an appropriate amount so that these companies can make a profit, and they should make a profit.

I guess it comes down to the fan base. It would be a shame for something as good and cool as Harn to roll up it's doors and stop selling, and it seems that the only way to prevent this is for the fans to churn out awesome fan stuff, and pay for the occasional Columbia or Kelestia book.

Agreed--in fact, the time I GM'd this still ranks as my most enjoyable rpg campaign/adventure.

I'm all for a "super adventure" (whether boxed or not), but I'd prefer not to see a repackaging of the Staff et al trilogy.

Instead, I'd like a Nyarlathotep-scale campaign/adventure based upon the "upcoming" Venarive release. You know, a grand adventure spread over several countries--a tour of western Lythia.

I happen to be a entrepreneur with almost twenty years of marketing background. So I feel completely qualified to outline a business plan in an industry I don't know squat about. But here's my 2d for CGI.

The key to success in such a difficult industry is getting from each customer the maximum price he's willing to pay for your product. There are people on this board that would not hesitate to pungle up a $100 for a first-class Harn product, and others that wouldn't pay $5 for anything. And lots of folks in-between.

Here's the plan.

- Turn fanon into canon. With the permission of the authors, take the very best of the fanon and make it available for download on the CGI site. Format it to a standard, make it searchable on the web site, and "canonize" it. Append to each piece some additional material such as a single page, b/w map of the appropriate kingdom - teasers to pique interest in paid pieces.

(I would be curious to know whether other fanon writers would appreciate the recognition. Personally, if CGI could use the stuff I wrote to help their business I'd be tickled pink, since I genuinely want CGI to succeed and keep making Harn stuff.)

- Offer a free abridged PDF product to introduce Harn, with 8.5x11 maps and about 20-30 pages of text and art. Imagine 2-page articles on: general description, each kingdom, religion, history, magic, monsters, guilds and trade, and feudal society, and also two or three page "teasers" such as a section of one of the cities, a castle, and a village. Finally, add some "pottage".

The idea is to get new people into Harn. If you lurk on other boards you'll realize that the general gaming community thinks of Harn (when it thinks of Harn) as being complex and over-detailed. They are impressed, even intimidated, but it doesn't seem "fun". A good introduction could change that impression.

Also, think of this product as CGI's "catalog". Each of the sections is essentially a teaser for one of the kingdom modules or other products (e.g. Gods of Harn).

- Keep making kingdom modules and similar products retailing in the $30 range. At that price level I imagine CGI can pay for the inputs and get high quality. And suspect that there is a reason why most of their output is in this price range. And I would keep it all rules-neutral. I would strongly emphasize the maps, which CGI is justly known for.

- Finally, start making "coffee table books". Take the best materials and reprint them with the best paper, printing, and binding - no matter what it costs. (And include a companion CD, and just a little new material not available elsewhere.) Don't hesitate to sell them for a three-digit price. A lot of Harniacs are forty-somethings with decent jobs, and our wives love us enough that they'll buy us the glossy $149 Kaldor book for our birthdays without hesitation. (After all, our Harn collection was cheaper than her shoe collection.) The hitch that I haven't researched is whether you can print in short enough runs to keep the capital requirements to a minimum.

There are two main ideas here. First, it's creating an ascending ladder, where the initial commitment is low but the customer is always gently pulled to higher levels. This reduces the barrier to entry for new customers and creates an aspirational mentality. You want new players to be saying, "I started with the intro PDF and had some fun with a few adventures in the Asolade Hundred. Now my players want to get involved in the KSC, so I need to buy the Kaldor module. But what I really want is the big Kaldor book - maybe that'll be my xmas present to myself this year."

The second idea is maximizing the profit from each customer segment. Let's face it, you can't make money from mooches, and most people are mooches. So what other folks are going broke trying to sell for $5, you just give away. In doing so you are gambling that among the mooches are a few real customers.

By customer, I mean someone willing to pay a price where you can make some money. These folks should be attracted by the $30-40 range, which is a price that most adults consider a routine purchase - like a pair of shoes or a night at the movies.

And from that group you can find more than a few true Harniacs. While few consider a $150 book an "impulse buy", it is cheap compared to almost any other adult hobby. $150 won't buy you a pair of skis or set of golf clubs. The key to getting that kind of money is to make the quality high enough that it doesn't get compared to other gaming books. (And there is a value proposition as well, since each would include the content from multiple $30 books, but in higher quality.)

Now, I might be all wet with this. I certainly don't know much about printing costs, which is obviously critical to the idea. But even if not everything I suggest is feasible as written, the underlying principles are valid.

Count me in.

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A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.

Pokep raises a good point. Harn is nothing if not niche, so an expensive book or two would probably be a good seller to the hardcore fans. Like he said, $150 is hardly the cost of a decent pair of shoes for our wives

And it wont go out of fashion next year, requiring another edition of the book to be brought.

I will not tell you how much I've spent on my WH40K army over the past 2 years , but I can tell you I'd drop 150 for a good hard cover from CGI without thinking twice about it... and the wife would not even mind as it's cheap compared to 40K.

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Ok, let me get this straight. These guys come in, trash the place, slap Agrik & Larani around, and the most intelligible thing they said was "Zog!"?

I am into Flight Sims and the addons are not cheap. So long as a book has some new material. And I put out a few idea's with the Kelestia mob, about a grand campaign to tie together the new locations. But my age lets me have more money, but not more free time. So I would buy a adventure etc that takes me to new locations.

This would be a mistake. CGI try to do exact the other think. Have no product in stock by a large number, print digital by demand and publish a lot of supplies only as pdf. So the company reduced the fix costs and get a much faster profit for one product.

By producing a box, which are really expensive, you have also print the books again in offset. To make this efficiently you have to again large numbers of copies. The minimum should be 2,000 copies, but up to 10,000 the price per box still get cheaper.
So you have to make again a big investment, a keep a stock at last for years and wait almost the same manner to be profitable.

Mishler underestimate this factor.

There was a lot of people who were criticizing the D&D 3.5/4 comparison. The problem is not only the bad design, the added value is too small for a lot of people who had already 3.5. His argument will only work for people who start new with D&D.
But it is true that in the last 20 years the (pen & paper) RPG market had no growth.

Ok, the bad economy part was bad copy & paste. The actual numbers for the entertainment segment are much more complicated.

The post of Beadle I have still to read a few times There are a few ideas i really support.

I totally agree with pokep.
I print everything i need in the game, it is an advantage because you can comment the text without to ruin the material. I can reprint it.

But I would love a (hardcover)book.

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everybodyTHINKShimselfSOwellSUPPLIEDwithCOMMONsenseTHATevenTHOSEmostDIFFICULTto PLEASEneverDESIREmoreOFitTHANtheyALREADYhave. RENEdescartes.

From all his ideas the hardcover is the most difficult. At first you need a good layouter with experience and confide in a print shop. This is really important as you can not make any mistakes.

Second about 500 copies have to be sold in short time to reach the break-even point (rough guess).

And at last there must be money to invest it in this idea.