Although Harnworld was created initially as a system free setting, I'm finding it very diificult to use any rule system other than Harn because of Harn's magic and religion.

The reason is deciding what spells can be used from other rule systems by the various shek-pvar and religious groups.

I'm looking at using one of 3 systems;

Jaws of the 6 Serpents (pdq variant)
http://www.silverbranch.co.uk/jaws/index.htm
Has a very free form magic system

High Valour
http://silverlionstudios.com/blog/products/high-valor
Again has a very free form magic system

Chronica Feudalis
http://chronicafeudalis.com
No magic system

Any advice?

Don't know about those three - but if your interested in Gemini - we've had a discussion before on it and its magic system - along with a treatise on converting it to Harnmaster.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7994

Good luck,

_________________
"Honor is earned through the balance of peace and harmony, yet to the Master all eyes are open to possibilities".

Silverleaf 1981

I played for a short while in a Harn game that used Ars Magica for magic. It was very cool.

Yeah Ars Magica has some interesting elements in its magic system that make a potential melding of the Pvaric system possible.

On another note the Rune Magic from BRP/RQ can be modified slightly to provide a Pvaric system.

I had a really long layover a couple years ago and worked all this out in one of my notebooks.. I'll go look for it

_________________
Thou Knowest The Black and Thou Knowest the White and Thou Knowest They are One.

The GM easily fitted the Ars magica concept around Pvarvic principles. It was fun making up magic on the fly. You need players with a good understanding of the ideas behind the "magic system" though. It means that Magic is not rote - you cast this spell you get this result.

I am pretty sure you could use something like Ars magica system without dropping the rest of Harnmaster.

There are two things I would like to point out.

1 - P'varism is not the only path to wisdom. It is simply the most influential and institutionalized. It does not have a monopoly on the truth, nor on the minds of the arcane community.

2 - To use a crude analogy, P'varism lists the ingredients, but it does not provide all the recipes. It provides a framework of elements - a vocabulary for describing arcane phenomena - but does not describe all the possible processes by which they can be observed and manipulated.

So, IMpH, I encouraged my spellcasting players to use P'varism as a source for vocabulary, but to provide their own ideas for how magic really 'works'. For example, one Jmorvri mage believed that magic was a matter of reactions at the interfaces of contrasting materials. So his spells all relied on combining pure materials in interesting physical forms - powders, matrices, foils. He would argue with the Fyvrian that 'life' was really simply a matter of the extremely complex interfaces in a plant or animal, and would point to the lobes of the brain or the branching veins in a leaf as evidence. P'varism didn't limit his ability to create a spell system, it merely gave him a vocabulary for describing it.

So very true. In my pHarn, P'varism is just one way of describing magic. My elves see magic somewhat differently, and so do not bother with the convocations, but this makes it harder to learn. I also have runemasters in Ivinia, and Conan-style evil sorcerers are more common than P'varic mages from Dalkesh eastwards. As I see it, P'varism not only has restrictions against summoning demons, animating the dead, possession of souls, etc., but it has no method of doing so. These types of magic are outside the scope of P'varism, but they still exist.

I also separate religious magic into two types. First, there's the stuff like blessings, baptism, weddings and funerals. Any priest can do these, and all are expected to know how to do them, but they have no material affect on the game world. They are ceremony, not spell rituals. The people feel better when blessed, they think they now have a benefit, but it's all mental. As you may guess, I don't use the Piety attribute.

Being a priest is a job description - they can learn carpentry, cooking, and magic on the side, but get none of these just because they are a priest. A priest that can cast a real spell is quite rare, and some religions actively discourage it. Some may be P'varic mages that have entered the priesthood. Some are priests that have attended a chantry in their spare time. Most are priests that have been taught one of a very small number of spells that are common to that church. They consider them rituals, and call to their god during the casting. The spell always has something to do with the deity's powers (Agrik - fire, Peoni - crops, etc). However, these are no different than any other spell - they are simply channeling power from the ether. If an Agrikian priest learns how to summon a wall of fire, it's likely to be quite similar to the wall of fire a Peleahn mage creates. They describe it differently, they learn it differently, and they may even think it is different, but it's essentially the same thing. The temple may only teach 5 real spells, but they teach very little of the basics and theory of magic, and do not teach how to research and learn/create new magic. They have a limited cookbook, and they know if you can follow the directions correctly, a certain result will happen. Some know it's just another magic spell they are learning, while others go to their grave thinking they were channeling the power of the deity. Most priests never bother to learn, or never get the chance. Learning the small number of available spells/rituals may or may not help advancement in the church hierarchy.

For HM Religion in with Runequest rules I treat the gods like I would any others in BRP. Gods have certain general associations (Agrik = Fire and War for instance, which is not exactly uncommon for a war-god). Being a certain "type" of diety their followers have access to certain types of blessings and ultimately divine magic spells. Level of access to same depends on one's rank in the religion's hierarchy, for the most part. A thing that I like about this system is that it tends to put people firmly in a community of believers because as adherents to a particular cult at a particular temple, they have to support it and they gain certain benefits.

I don't personally go for the Glorantha setting or the RQ-settings where basically everyone can cast a spell... but I like the way religion/divine magic works in RQ mechanics and I apply it to my pHarn setting.

As for Shek-Pvar and the like... Rune Magic can be modified into the Pvaric Wheel because certain Runes are almost Convocations. Now, there are more Runes than Convocations, but some Runes together pretty much exactly mirror a convocation. You have to attune to your Rune to gain access to it's power (it's simply a form through which you channel power to influence reality). So to be fully attuned to one's convocation would involve being fully attuned to 2-3 Runes. But it essentially the same process on paper.

The Ars Magica system also easily flows into the Pvaric Wheel. The Techniques (Creo-create, Intellego-perceive, Muto-transform, Perdo-destroy, Rego-control) and the Forms (Animal. Aquam, Auram, Corporem, Herbam, Ignem, Imagonem, Mentem, Terram, Vim... yall are smart you can translate those) are also similar to the convocations.

My interpretation of a magic system combines aspects of Ars Magica and RQ.

_________________
Thou Knowest The Black and Thou Knowest the White and Thou Knowest They are One.