I purcahsed the Real Estate pdf from rpgnow.com Here.

But I don't understand how to price a house for sale. For example, this is a portion of page 5:



The text says

"Home prices are determined by adding lot and building prices."

But there's no mention what to do with the Building Quality Factor entry. I'm assuming you multiply it by the sum of the lot and building price but it doesn't mention this.

Anyone have an idea?

No problem, I found it

Basically it's not used to factor a price.

Has anyone read the 'Household' pdf for calculating how much the pcs need to spend a month? I tried to understand it but it defeated me. It's a bit obscure. For example, it mentions a budget, but it doesn't tell you if you calculate the budget on a daily, weekly, or monthly rota. Then it mentions working hours the characters can put in, but again doesn't tell you if you should enter a daily, weekly or monthly rota.

I am thinking of charging them the rent per month from the Real Estate pdf, for example, 100p, and maybe requiring them to spend maybe twice or three times that amount. So 200p or 300p per month.

What do you think?

Figure out their income. Add 30%.

Seriously, people spend what they have. The question isn't "How much will it cost to have X lifestyle?" It's, "What lifestyle can I have for Y shillings per month." And it's a lot easier to take it from that point of view. Instead of trying to add up all the expenses, you can compare incomes instead.

So ask the players how much they are going to spend month-to-month, and compare it to the incomes for various occupations. Then describe to the party how they are living.

Calculate backwards (sort of).

In the example Household I decided that this is a very wealthy family and I should land on roughly 384d a month (or up to). My idea for this test was that this was a rich freemaster mercantyler or so and as such he can earn up to six times as much as a bonded master (but must pay for everything himself).

I added up all the servants (and allocated their work to get all the factors needed). Then I started to add money to the Food, Cloth and Housekeeping. I added until I saw that the index(es) was high enough for this particular family.

What I meant with backward was, decide what standard you want and then calculate what that would cost.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Fenhorn this is ideal!

Edit: One thing I'm still unsure of, is how to calculate budget, wage, and hours worked. I'm assuming it's all monthly?

It is monthly.

But on the other hands, you do it once and then you have a "standard" that can be "GM discretion" with according to events that happens.

1) Add up all who lives in the household.
2) Allocate all the work and calculate the factors for food, cloth and housekeeping (food is the most important one so let that be high).
3) Look into the table and see what standard you want and then check backwards to see how much money you need to spend to reach that. Using the xls if mine you can just add money and look at the standard as it changes and do that until you happy.
4) The monthly expense will show up, with rents and such if you have entered that. If that expense is to high, then you must go back to 3.
5) Smile.

Edit to and a table.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

There was a great article on how much it cost per month/year to live as a pauper/peasant/wealthy thrall/king etc etc etc, with game consequences (such as equipment quality..strength and stamina penalties..life expectancy (For those playing the long game.... )

It also had good descriptions of those that pay out this much...


It was extremely useful for the GM that did not want to balance sheet/role play the shopping...as one could say which bracket do you want to live in (or can afford) and you could just assume they had this quality clothing/weapons etc.

I wonder if anyone here knows where it is lurking???????

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Now that's just teasing. This has to be located!

Ok thanks for that.

I've noticed you've allocated for the Budget section:

Food and Drink: 79d
Clothing: 17d
Housekeeping: 5d

But the total amount of wages coming in per month is only 78d

Am I reading this wrong?

I thought that I have dl:ed most things regarding HM, but I must have missed this (it was for HM?).

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

The 78d "Domestic Wages" is what this family must pay their servants. I have not written the income of the family, but as I said, must be a very rich family since the total cost is 341d per month.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Yeah...for HM. Itis old..was called housekeeping or something...even had weight loss/gain for the lifestyles. Great pice of work.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

But I thought the wage section was for how much the pcs are earning per month. I am probably wrong but it looks like your household cannot be supported by the wages indicated.

The wages section is how much the servant or person cost. Edit: So how much this household brings in (the wages of the head of the household and/or his family) is not listed anywhere, but needs to be as much what the budget cost, at least 341d each month.

So this is a rich man with a wage of 341d+ per month with a family that don't do anything at home (no hours allocated). They have servants to do that for them (that they pay 78d total each month). The servants live with this family so that's the reason that they are added here (non family members are cheaper to "maintain" if I remember the household article correct). Edit3: With my xls, if the servants (or whatever) don't live with family (don't have room & board) don't write anything in the Name of Resident section. It is this section that identifies friends of foes. If the person is counted as family, write so in the position section).

Perhaps a very stupid example, but here is another.

This time is Garlic the Smelly (who happens to live on the same street) but he is only a labourer. They have no servants to do everything they wants so they needs to do it themselves. Even the kids must help. In this calculation Garlic works full time (no household hours). The wife do half time at home and also needs to work the other half time elsewhere (also labourer, or something similar like laundry, street cleaning, etc.) The older kids could also work to bring in money. They need to get in around 81.75d (wasn't that doing this by the numbers) or they will have to adjust this budget accordingly.

Edit2: So if Garlic himself earns 42d each month, and his wife 21d each month, his son 10d each month and his oldest daughter 9d each month (his youngest daughter is to young to work). They will be 0,25d ahead each month (they earn 82d each month in total). Or of course Garlic or his wife could work more (more hours).

Garlic and his family walks by the Dorothy's rich family each day and utters some well chosen words.

Edit4: Sorry for all the edits.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Thanks for all this Fenhorn

This is fun, can’t wait to hit the players with all this! I have a few more questions:

Under the Budget Sector, there’s a box next to Living Space. But what is this for? I'm assuming you enter a monetary value there. But entering any monetary amount doesn’t seem to affect anything because it is not linked to any other value. It doesn't seem to be added to or multiplied by anything else.

Subsequently, on page 5 it says “For Living Space, Val/R is Square feet per Resident.” So in a 1,200 sq’ house, with 4 residents, that’s 4,800? If I'm right, how is your Living Space only 2,000sq' with all 7 residents you have?

How do you calculate what your Mortgage/Rent/Loan fees are?

How do you calculate what your Taxes are?

Also, I have four players; each has a character who is a man at arms, earning 30d a month, that’s 120 in total, per month. It seems to me, that with all the costs (Food and Drink, Taxes etc), they need to be bringing in double this to have an average standard of living. Is that how it is?

Finally, the Clothing Index. I spend 15d a month, this is multiplied by an LF of 3.70, and then multiplied by the MRF which is a 1, and finally the sub total is divided by 4 (residents) for a total CLI of 13.87. Which indicates a CLI of 17: Good on the Clothing Appearance table on page 6. Is this correct?

In this example we have four mercs that live together (I guess people will start to talk).

They have hired a young servant girl named Binty that also live with them (now people will start to talk).

They live in a house with 600 square feet of living space (Living Space TSF on the xls). The property value is estimated to 750d. Since they are hiring it for 2% each month and also they have to pay the tax for it (this is very expensive, but as I said, people have started to talk). Normally if you just hire something, the tax is counted for by the Landlord, but technically rent can be lowered and the current houselord (the one that rents the house) pay tax instead. The tax is 8% but this is a year so it will only be 5d each month. Rent is 15d each month.
The four guys spend 57,50 on food each month that the servant spend 230 hours to prepare, yielding in a Food Index of 30 (the lowest of the lowest in Adequate, this is not so good).
They spend 5,50d on clothes each month. That is good. The servant spend 30 hours a month with this. Index of 9 (Decent).
They spend 7d on the house and each freshness each month. This is good. The servant spend 40 hours doing this. Index of 8 (Good).
They spend 6d on luxuries each month. This is not enough to change their living standard, but is logical (even rather low). But perhaps they can buy something nice every now and then.


The alternative would be to skip the servant (and have one mouth less to feed and shelter) and doing all the work themselves. Or to calculate what meals on an Inn cost each month and skip the 57,50d and paying the inn instead. Regarding this last one, it would be the logical thing since, the house needs to be cleaned and looked after and their clothes need repairs, but food is often paid for by the "army". So these guys can for example be working 24 days each month with food and need only the house to relax in and when off and to hang there hats in.

Edit: And your example with clothes are correct.

_________________
"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

They're paid wages of 1.25/day, which suggests that they should also receive room and board or be given at least 1d/day more, unless they really have a lousy contract. FYI the standard wages on Hârn assume room & board are offered as well.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

The man at arms on page 14 is paid 5f/day, 30d/month and 360d/yearly.

That's what I went on anyways. But yes, as it goes they're all sleeping in Sir Shernath's stable.

Thanks Fen, a couple of questions.


How did you calculate the 750d?


Where did you get the 2% from?


Again, how did you come to 8% and the other totals?

Well, standard hârnic wages assume room & board are paid by the employer, so if they aren't, some kind of compensation would be due. It could be something as simple as 2 gallons of beer and 8 loaves of bread a day (for the four of them), but also could be some kind of deal with an eatery or tavern, and could of course come in the form of cash. Having his men-at-arms sleep in his stable like lowly servants or vagrants, or even worse having them beg food in the streets, isn't good for the employer's status anyway.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

The info about the house is taken from the Real Estate article. It follows:

I took a house in Poor Quarter neighbourhood. The house has two floors and has Lot that is 600 squarefeet. Each floor is of course 600 squarefeet as well.

The Lot is valued to 600d (1d per squarefeet).
The house (both floors) is valued to 900d (0,75d per squarefeet).

So the value per floor is:
300d (half of the value of the Lot) + 450d (0,75d per squarefeet) = 750d

A Lot of this size in the Poor Quarters can of course differ to 900d or up to 1200d according to the article and the house can differ from 600d to 1200d. Then can the different floor be valued separately but all that is up to the GM.

Normally you either rent an appartment or house or own it. If you rent it, the article say that the Landlord takes about 1-3% of the value in rent per month. I wrote 2% since that is average here or 15d per month.
Property Tax is normally paid for by the Landlord but a greedy Landlord can force a tenant to pay for that as well. The average Property Tax on Hârn is 8% (for non-guilded) a year or 60d. My xls just divide that so you see the monthly cost of it (5d per month) even though, taxes are normally paid once per year (in Savor I think?). If the Landlord is nice and honest, this 5d is included in the rent (of 15d).

In my example I assumed your the four mercs hired a flat somewhere and someone else lives upstairs (or downstairs).

The article takes up mortgage and other stuff as well. Mortgage is a loan with a house as security (the article also mentions that the idea to take a loan to buy a house and use that house as security for the loan is not invented yet so in this case you can mortgage a house you own to buy a new house). The reason for this is that mortgage rent is usually much lower than the rent that a Landlord charges. You can of course mortgage other things than a house I guess. During the crusades I think you could hire weapons and armour (edit: but I'm no expert in the crusades so).

_________________
"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Ok thanks for all that

Makes more sense now

Is my attempt here right?

The characters are looking to rent a building on a lot measured 40' x 30', therefore = 12,000 square feet. There's only one floor, so:

Rent Summary.....................Area.............Rent
Ground Floor........................1200..............96d

Total..................................1200..............96d

This following calculations are taken from Real Estate page 5.

The landlord is paying 8% property tax on an assessed value of 1200.00d, for a total of 96d per year. As an average landlord, he sets his total rents to bring in about three times his total taxes (on both the building and lot). Yearly total therefore is 96 x 3 = 288d.

The total rent for the building is divided among 4 tenants, so each will pay roughly 72d per year, only 6d weekly?

That doesn't seem very much

No it isn't very much, but the house is a hovel in a slum neighbourhood (I guess, looking at the size vs. value). It is 24d in rent each month for a not so fresh house in a not so good neighbourhood.
The house is large and could take as many as 9 people before being cramped (before Living Space Index becomes lower than average). Mathematically it can take 12 people (1200/5/20=LSI of 5). Your four guys will have a Living Space Index of 15. That is a lot but still the house hovel in a slum neighbourhood.

Edit (what again):
Come back when you hiring a house in a good neighbourhood. Then rent will be about 160d each month for a house of the same size (if you can find one).

And the rent is per month so if four guys are renting your house that a Landlord wants 288d yearly for, then each merc pay 6d per month or 40d each per month for the same house in a good neighbourhood.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage