I was wondering about the trail that leads from Habe to the place called Khortoz, if you follow the river Idain upstream. There is drawn a dashed line leading into the direction of a mountain pass through the Sorkin mountains.
Does this path lead to the coast between Cape Halek and Anrist Point to Kuza Point?

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everybodyTHINKShimselfSOwellSUPPLIEDwithCOMMONsenseTHATevenTHOSEmostDIFFICULTto PLEASEneverDESIREmoreOFitTHANtheyALREADYhave. RENEdescartes.

Khortuz is a military outpost, so the path is more likely a patrol route. I would imagine the trail once led to the sea (and perhaps a small harbor). However, given the fact that Foulspawn have had the kingdom essentially surrounded for several centuries, it is probably very disused and overgrown by now.

That sounds just the sort of place for an enterprising group of misfits to choose to revitalise and turn in to a new trade route to access all that silver bullion at the head of the trail...

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··<SableFox>··
AKA Jonathan M Davidson

In my pharn, the Kuzdul of Azadmere have a hidden port in the bay near Kuza Pt. connected by a military tunnel from the main city. Figured that after 7000 years they'ed have an alternate means of getting supplies and trade.

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Ok, let me get this straight. These guys come in, trash the place, slap Agrik & Larani around, and the most intelligible thing they said was "Zog!"?

My Azadmere has something similar.

Not an actual 'running' secret port, but they have the tunnel built, and a serious of large unground warehouses stuffed with EVERYTHING they would need to get a small port up and running quickly (they'd be able to recieve cargo on a wooden dock within days). All they gotta do is punch through about 10 feet of rock, and then use the pre-positioned construction materials.

My Azadmere LIKES having Kaldor as a gate keeper, but has no intention of being completely at Kaldor's mercy for trade if a loon should manage to get on the Throne.

My Azadmere takes a more isolationist and Khuzdul-centric view. Who cares what happens in Kaldor? Yes, the trade is useful, but if a loon gets on the throne, just wait a century or two and everything will sort itself out. Easy.

Of course there is also the ancient (and abandoned) Selene Way leading down to modern Minarsis ... or so says the shade of Bazanthar ...

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...and I'm not dead yet...

>Who cares what happens in Kaldor?

Is your Azadmere not dependent on food imports?

The food imports to Azadmere help to feed the human population of Azadmere. The dwarven population is self-sufficient when it comes to food.

There was a thread on this forum many moons ago (unfortunately lost in a server crash) that talked about this very issue (Azadmere's food imports). Someone did a great analysis of how many mules carrying how much grain could transit the Silver Way (actually, this might have been in preparation for the writing of the Silver Way article, now that I think about it) and the general consensus was that even with its own agricultural output and these reasonable imports, Azadmere still couldn't feed itself. But that if you took out the Khuzdul population and just counted the human population, the numbers came up pretty close. That then implied that the Khuzdul were not dependent on imports for food, which led to all sorts of further speculation about what dwarves eat. My own contribution to the thread dealt with Khuzdul underground agriculture/aquaculture and the resultant cuisine. I have some of those notes hanging around somewhere and can re-post them if there's any interest.

So, when I say that Azadmere takes a very Khuzdul-centric view, I am implying that if push came to shove and things in Kaldor went to hell in a handbasket, the welfare of their human tenants wouldn't necessarily be a very high priority for the dwarven lords of Azadmere. This is something that the Baron of Habe strongly suspects, and is deeply troubled by. I find this interpretation interesting largely because it has the potential to lead to interracial tension within Azadmere and highlights the differences in mentality between the very long-sighted dwarves and the more immediate needs of the humans. When your life span is over 600 years, what's a decade or two of civil war amongst your neighbors?

If you couldn't buy dog food for 9 months, what would you do?

I flatly reject the nation that the dwarves of Azadmere view their human population as anything remotely like 'livestock'.

More like 'citizens' I'd say.

Although you raise a valid point on the flaw in canon on the amount of cargo the silver way could handle. Easiest way to fix that with MINIMUM disruption of canon is to make the silver way capable of handling enough cargo until it COULD help significantly to feed Azadmere.

An argument at last!!! Is there evidence either way?

I know in Canon the Sindar show a paternalistic disregard for human centred practices, or human self determinism..but cannot remember the Dwarven stance.

However; seeing humans as chattel or inferior bondsmen is not a grand insult imho....most humans have the means to view their own kind thus..slave,serf etc.

I think the livestock analogy is prosaic, and disguises the proviso 'push comes to shove.' Under such auspices would a Rethemi care if all melderyn starved? Or a Kaldoran Care if Tharda died?

Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be would a Human Lord starve his own household to feed his fief? Answers on a postcard please

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

It's reasonable to assume that, given the stark racial differences, all races will have an underlying suspicion of all other races, and subtle--perhaps even unnoticed and unintended--racism in their dealings or associations with those other races. We know from canon that Khuzdul and Sindar view each other with at least some level of skepticism if not downright suspicion. Why should a racial association between Khuzdul and Human be any different?

Think of it this way; the Jarin have been with the Khuzdul of Azadmere for around 40-50 generations...but from the Dwarven perspective it's more like 2 or 3. BIG difference in perception, eh?

Given the grief caused on our own planet due to piffling differences in skin colour, eye shape, and religious or political belief, why would you think there's a better attitude when the differences are WAY bigger than skin deep? Sindar, Khuzdul, Humans, Orc....they literally are aliens to each other. That's gotta count as a significant influence on inter-species relationships.

The other thing I'd like to point out is that, with very little effort, the Khuzdul could pull back into Azadmere, and block ALL entrances...well, all the ones we know about, anyway. They could simply wait for the humans to go to sleep one night, and when they wake up next day...no more dwarven overlords.

You may not like the idea, and you can have whatever attitude you want in your p-Harn of course, but there is an argument to be made that dwarves could treat the Jarin in Azadmere as second-class citizens...or as intelligent animals, as far as I can see.

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Shipping by sea should be cheaper than shipping by land especially if you are thinking and planning in centuries.

Hard to believe there is no suitable coast for a small "SEA PORT" or Two or Three comprising one or two (or even more docks) scattered along the coast line. IMO that is just a detail that was overlooked.

Exactly what constitutes the definition of a sea port according to your P-Harn Pilot's Guild. Consider canon for the cities with the fewest numbers of docks and their population size as a guideline.

Perhaps it is a combination of factors:

A resident Guild Pilot Harbor Master of a city with four or more docks capable of handling eight or more possibly sixteen plus ships at once according to the Pilot's Guild.

A manorial fishing port like the one at Vil Abbey does not meet their definition although small sea going ships visit regularly each week which can transport a lot of tonnage of cargo compared to a caravan. Note there is no resident Pilot at the Abbey.

In the stretch of coastline between Azadmere and the sea there would be great difficulty in maintaining a port (unless heavily fortified) due to a combination of raids from the sea by Ivinians (infrequent) and from the hills by the gargun (constant). An operational port would find it almost impossible to maintain any sort of agricutural hinterland, hence all it's food would have to be imported by sea or by caravan from Azadmere.
Speaking of caravans, what distance would the port be from the population centers of Azadmere? How many mules would be required to move the food? Are there any constraints in this manner?
On the other hand, if they had a tunnel, as suggested above, they could also have a tramway, with several of the "King's Wagons" (If I recall the name correctly from the "Silver Way" article.) pulled by a team of oxen, which would be very efficient. In fact, the tunnel could be started 100' above sea level at the coastal end, and at or below sea-level by the city, so that the laden wagons could get an assist from gravity, and the usually empty wagons on the trip out would have to be pulled uphill.

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Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

Valid points.

I even agree, up to a point. I just reject that the Dwarves are Azadmere are on the low end of Harnic decency (typical rethmi attitude towards peasants). I would put them more towards the high end (the attitude of the Bailiff of Jedes towards his peasants and commoners).

This is a straw man argument IMO.

A blockade is not feasible with the limited number of ships on Harn and a good reason to have more than a single sea port if it is an issue.

Why would the manor need to be self supporting agriculturally when the purpose is to import food by sea and why is fortifying a small sea port or outpost in some manner which would not require more than a single pier an issue for the best masons in the world?

One or two fishing vessels another food source and possibly more including a Salter depending on the scale.

Wheat weighs 50# a bushel and the general rule of thumb is it is cheaper to ship by sea than over land.

IMO Gargun everywhere is a cop out but every P-Harn is different.

Ivinians typically raid manors so build an easily defensible Keep or Harbor or a Castle or a Fortified Manor after all they are the best Masons in the world.

Scope out a few prospective sites. Arrive from sea and start building.

Peter picked up on what I was getting at. I don't mean that the Khuzdul treat humans as livestock (which would imply that they are raised for food), but merely that it's hard for the Khuzdul to contextualize the needs of their human vassals. At some level, the know that humans are trouble (the Atani Wars, the Battle of Sorrows, the rise of Lothrim, etc), and if conditions in Kaldor got bad enough that food imports stopped completely, I don't think that their first instinct would be to build a seaport. I view the Khuzdul as cautious and not prone to rash decisions. But in the amount of time it might take them to feel that they have given the matter due consideration, months or years may have elapsed.

Furthermore, we have to consider Khuzdul dietary self sufficiency in and of itself. I mean, what did the dwarves do before humans came to Harn? What did they eat, how did they sustain their communities? I can't really see dwarves out in the fields tilling the soil and harvesting grain. It just doesn't fit for me, and it isn't really mentioned anywhere in the canon. Also, I get the impression that their population numbers are dwindling, not growing, which implies that they were at one time capable of sustaining a larger population.

Finally, I disagree with your assessment of how to "fix" the canon numbers. Rather than contradict both the Silver Way and Kaldor articles to increase the food imports (a retcon of canon sources), why not keep them the way they are and propose alternative food sources for the Khuzdul population of Azadmere (something which is omitted from canon entirely, and thus does not require a retcon)? And this is especially the case when the dwarves had to eat something before humans came around to start fattening them on grain in the first place.

They hunted and foraged over a large hinterland, which is no longer available to them due to the Gargun. (Kiraz provides evidence for this.) They also farmed the Vale of Azadmere, a practice which they gave up and ceded to the Jarin when they accepted them.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

In the Kiraz module in states that the majority of the Dwarves were out a hunter gatherin when Kiraz was stormed; I cannot remember if this was normal practice beforew winter or driven by low food stocks......

Either way it can explain/predict the behaviour of Azadmere...

1) If the Dwarves did used to hunter gather as regular pattern of feeding; they may still today. However; they clearly do not roam en masse outside their own kingdom, and hunting in small bands in the nearby mountains would be dangerous. Also the available game would be reduced by the Gargun massively; so slim pickings there. That leaves hunting in the kingdom itself....which may not have a vast resource of fauna to feed well. Hence food imports are needed to back up supplies to prevent regular emptying of the stronghold.

2) If they only did the hunter gathering thing in extremis; then it shows their normal foodsource (whatever it is) is vulnerable. Therefore food imports are needed to prevent an emergency emptying of the stronhold in response to food shortage in the future.

Either way it proves the Dwarves at least at times historically relied on a hunted meat diet; which at comparable times now is replaced?/supplemented by grain imports. If the huntergathering was annually; then the food imports are a vital balance in the annual diet: Shutting the doors would soon mean dangerous hunting in them hills...dependent on how much reseves of grain they have....

If the huntergatherin' was sporadic in response to occassional shortage...then shutting the doors to Azadmere for a relatively long time would be more feasible...but would eventually lead to huntin in them there hills again....

So; imho the Khuzan view of Kaldorans is probably resentful/bitter/realistic/dependent. Without them their way of life would probably revert to a risky (but more natural? Longed For?) Kiraz style existence.

Their view of their human vassals in Azadmere I purport would be less..polarised . I do not think their presence affects the food balance...they might make a bit more than if dwarves farmed but they also eat it. So IMHO the Dwarves do not rely on them to prevent Hunter gathering (Why import from Kaldor if so?). Therefore, the attitude to them might be more indifferent. After all closing the doors to Kaldoran grain is a dangerous (short term or long term) policy. Closing the doors to Human Azadmerans is..rude...disloyal...but ultimately not dangerous to the Khuzan future.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Why are you assuming that all (or even the majority) of their hunting/gathering takes place on the surface?

Good point.

The answer is that is 'cos that is what happened at Kiraz. Azadmere may be different.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Only yesterday I watched a documentary about a tropic earthworm - it was a huge and fat one. (edit)

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everybodyTHINKShimselfSOwellSUPPLIEDwithCOMMONsenseTHATevenTHOSEmostDIFFICULTto PLEASEneverDESIREmoreOFitTHANtheyALREADYhave. RENEdescartes.

I mostly watch TV with the kids......but each to his own.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Peter 1 : Sard 0

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everybodyTHINKShimselfSOwellSUPPLIEDwithCOMMONsenseTHATevenTHOSEmostDIFFICULTto PLEASEneverDESIREmoreOFitTHANtheyALREADYhave. RENEdescartes.

Khuzdhul are always difficult to figure in the various fantasy sources, as to how they provide for themselves.

But of course they had to at one time - and on their own, without human lackey's to do that for them.

Munin Wrote:



I agree, they don't seem like farmers to me. But neither do they seem like hunters either I guess .

Canon does mention the hunting bands outside of Kiraz, I think it also mentions it was a herd winter or something like that.

How about pastoralism? Do Khusdhul seem like the type that would herd animals? GOats would be well adapted to the areas the live in, and of course there are the swine that can eat about anything.

They do seem fond of meat and beer from various sources - and of course, beer requires grain. If beer drinking was a long standing tradition, they must have had means of producing grain prior to humans.

BTW - How many square miles are in the territory of Azadamere? And how many acres are human run manors?



Underground sources could be possible, but what food types? And with the underground's lack of much photosynthesis, it's not going to be very food "rich". I'd be interested in underground food sources and ideas as to what would be "farmed", but again, what type of food products?

And even underground pools/streams would quickly be overfished, unless they practice some sort of fish breeding (along with somehow getting the required food to these hatcheries). And one reason I don't care for the idea of dwarves as fish breeders is their strong aversion to water, which is also canon.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....