I was just wondering if she might have been involved in the storms of 707 but she was already exiled in 703.


The big storm in 707 would probably have been something she would have approved of. Who knows, maybe it was her that caused it - violating a policy of peaceful non-interference and secrecy.


Oooo... I like that one. One possible reading:

In 703 they exile her for advocating direct action against a growing threat in Orbaal. In 705 the Rape of Thay happens: Melderyn shuts the gates of Thay but does nothing - placating the enemy. So in 707 they come back again with a larger fleet: Dyalne, renegade in exile, has had it with the pacifistic BS and levels the fleet herself! (and damn the consequences of damage across Harn or anything else!)

(she then institutes a personal policy of direct action by herself against Melderyn's neighbors/enemies - which dovetails nicely with my reasoning for some other actions.)

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Dyalne's continued presence on the mortal realm could be evidence that she has either some powerful benefactors, or that there is quite a bit of uncertainty about her apparent apostacy. In other words, either the CoE and White Hand are dithering because they can't make up their collective mind, or they are dithering because there is a master string puller in the background.

Or both!

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I'll toss in my version of the truth - it's fun seeing how others do it.

Most of my Shek P'var are just like Leitchy's - scholars with no interest in the real world. They know a couple tricks and some can foretell the future, but for the most part they are seen as worthless to the average man on the street. If one can reliably tell the future, make potions and poultices that work, or do something entertaining, they are well received by the public, and are regularly sought out. If they have no "worthwhile" talents, then at least they sometimes teach the kids to write and do numbers, and that's worthwhile. If they want to bury their heads in old scrolls on their own time, well, it keeps them out of trouble. The public knows where the chantries of magic are located. Given the scarcity of chantries, most people never meet a mage, but they know they exist. The average person doesn't have a realistic idea of what a mage can do, but there are generally held stories about what they can and cannot do. The popularity of mages varies with how helpful they have been lately. There is at least one Genin-type walking around any given year helping out the common folk somewhere on Harn, but he was one of the very few that got widespread notice.

Some chantries and/or associations of chantries have numerous rules about what you can and cannot do. This includes the types of magic that can be used (necromancy is bad, but divination is good!), treatment and teaching of students, magical use in the public eye, etc. Some of this is basic common sense, other rules are to keep the mages out of trouble, and some is just to increase the political power of the group or the leader. Because there is no Mangai in my pHarn, there is also no over-arching mages guild of GoAL. The White Hand is no more than the enforcement arm of the Cherefir mage's guild, and thus has limited power. They are the biggest group, and throw their weight around accordingly, but don't have anywhere near the power they like to claim. Sure, the guild houses in Aleath and Thay follow their lead, but Glenoth, Coranan, and Tashal ignore them and go their own way. Mages follow the rules of their chantry because they find them to be good rules, or because the benefits of being associated with that chantry far outweigh the hassle of the rules.

As for the Council of Eleven, they started out as a group of people that were very interested in a) the wise use of magic for the public good, and b) good relationships with the elves and dwarves. They are still very interested in these two things. Their current working projects are the consolidation of Harnic kingdoms and integrating the various barbarian tribes into the more civilized societies. Unfortunately, they can't decide who should get Chybisa, and there are at least 5 competing views on how western Harn should be reintegrated into one Empire. None think the Solori or Pagaelin worth keeping, but they have hopes for the Tulwyn, Kath, and Bujoc. None of the current group have interests in Orbaal, and so that region is ignored. When they can all agree on a course of action (uncommon) they can be quite effective, but their real ability is the widespread intelligence gathering network they have. Friends, former apprentices, and paid spies feed info to the various members, and they generally share all they get with everyone else in the council. Sometimes they are aligned with the Melderyni crown, but not always. Sometimes the Melderyni crown knows about them, and may even be a member, but this is rare. Chunel likes them because he knows he will get quality intelligence from them, and greatly values the differing viewpoints on any course of action. They enjoy meddling in the affairs of others, and have the power and/or money to do so. They prefer being the power behind the throne, whispering in the ear of others.

Diviners and fortunetellers had warned something bad was coming to Thay, but as always, couldn't give specifics. A gargun swarm was about the most anyone thought about, and they were thought to be crazy end-of-the-world types. There was a lot of finger pointing afterwards, to be sure. As soon as they hit, they yelled for help. Riders were sent out, and boats fled for safer ports and to spread the news. Cherefir knew Thay was in trouble the day the raiders came into view, but could do little. The first time, the stars weren't aligned right, weather patterns were all wrong, and the big guy was down with the flu. When they came back, it was different. The storm was natural, and would have torn up the raiders regardless, but the mages in Cherefir were able to nudge it in just the right way. A week before or after, and they would have been powerless to help. They'll never admit that openly, of course.

I've come to view Harn as a neo-Platonic conceptualization of a hotchpotch of historical ideals.

The World-wide Syndrome

In terms of languages Robin took the time to break it down by culture and region. I would very much have liked to have seen the same for guilds, religion and magic. Or, at least, clear references to the fact that such variation exists, even if little is said about it. One size fits them all doesn't really work for me.

There is a basis for this in the Venarive Players Guide from Kelestia, which makes some references to divergent religious traditions in Hacherdad (and I think among the Quarph), etc. However, the tone of Harn Religion and Harn Magic strongly implies that this is how it is "on Kethira."

World-wide Religion.

In my opinion, philosophy-and-religion on Lythia should vary by culture and region. I treat the Concordat as a syncretic peculiarity of the Emelrene-Harn region. In Ivinia-Harbaal-Chelemby they revere Sarajin, the Elkyrie, and some lesser heroes. Modern Haleanism is a Kareijin variety of the Halean and Hedoni cults from eastern Lythia. In Dalkesh they worship Morgath, etc. In deep Anzeloria, among the Quarphic peoples and Reskynie horse nomads, and to the east of Hacherdad they worship gods few from the Venarive Rim and Northwestern Venarive have ever heard of.

World-wide Magic

Overall, I like the Shek-Pvar and Pvarism. It has a Hermetic flavor. However, this gives it a Western occultism vibe. Different mystical traditions for different cultures makes sense to me, and can serve to make exotic locales... exotic. It also opens the door for Kethiran versions of shamanism, voodoo, witchcraft, eastern sorcery, and the like. Perhaps the priests of anzeloria are "skinwalkers," etc.

World-wide (at least Western Lythia-wide) Guild Structure

Note that I said "structure" and not just "guild." While different regions have different Mangai councils running them, they all seem to follow the same basic structure and premises. This, I presume, is because Robin started with Harn and built outward. But I think the nature of the guilds, whether there are guilds, and which guilds exist would depend on local economy, history, and traditions.

The Intense Secrecy of the Shek-Pvar

While I understand Robin didn't want dime-a-dozen magical artillery pieces running around, the level of secrecy and restrictiveness imposed upon the Shek-Pvar goes to the opposite extreme. Its one area of canon I've found very frustrating. I prefer the "adventuring mages are rare" and "most mages are disinterested in mundane affairs" and "mages who exercise prudent judgement and only show-away when absolutely necessary live longer" take on the presence of "Weeezards!" I can see many as using the GOAL as a "cover story," but my harn usually has a handful of "out of the closet" Shek-Pvar wandering about and kicking hornet's nests.

The White Hand Canon Enforcement Mechanism

I treat this as being unique to the Pvaric community of Melderyn. They weild intense influence on the Wizard's Isle, but not much beyond. Unless the Council of Eleven is worried about how a Shek-Pvar's conduct is affecting their grand plans on the Misty Isle, I don't see mages from Medleryn tracking off to the armpits of Harn to mete out cultic justice. Emelrene may have a similar organization, as may Hacherdad. However, chantries beyond their sphere's of influence tend to control their own affairs.

Modern Haleanism

It may make a unique sort of syncretic sense in Kareijia, but the cult as presented has a fuzzy focus and is more of a near-eastern/meditteranean mystery cult than a religion that would catch on in other environments, like far Western Lythia. I prefer to focus on her being an agent of social cohesion via bargains-contracts-covenants-oaths, and divide the other aspects into another cult ala Ishtar, Aphrodite, Venus, etc.

Tolkein Imports

I do not love JRR. I do not love his elves. I do not love his dwarves. If one were to have such things they would be more appropriate in the "Sarajinian mythos" of the Ivinians, along with Jotnar.

Art

Disclaimer: I do like the artwork that Robert has done for Harn. He's got a special talent. However.... I think, sometimes, that it is too slavishly realistic and medieval. There is some room for fantasy cool-factor and a few good-looking folk on Kethira. As it is, Harn is a pretty homely Island filled with warts, bad teeth, and pot-bellies.

Potatoes

I play off the island. I have potatoes.

I don't see how it is Neo-Platonic, unless you are using this label to mean Syncretic.
I think Robin created a role-playing environment out of fragments culled from many different sources, historical and cultural, and pieced these together to make a world he thought would be fun and interesting to both GM and play in. Because this world doesn't just represent a specific time and place of the real world (medieval Europe), but a collection of times and places, then there are always going to be oddities.

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"The woods are alive with the smell of his coming!" Ilviran chant.

I was making a reference to Plato's concept of "forms." Many aspects of Harn appear to be crystallized conceptualizations of ideal states or historical theories of historical institutions and systems from many places rather than a complex, messy, and organic simulation of how things may actually have been in a given time and place.

However, you also bring up another "sillyism" I don't think Harn needs - the kitchen sink fantasy that emerges from having disparate elements in the milieu. It feels like Harn is trying to do too much and is fuzzy as a result. I think Harn would be stronger if it stuck with 8-10th century anglo-saxon-nordic fantasy for northwestern Lythia and didn't try to import things that don't work in that environment (like a powerful mangai, etc).

OK I see what you are saying, although it would have been better to have said Platonic rather than Neo-Platonic, hence me thinking you were referring to a syncreticism. You do have a good point concerning the 'mix and match' of historical settings, places and people which have come to make up what we know as Harn. I guess it is down to a good GM to sift through all this and present a coherent setting to his/her players. I've got to say I rather like the 'hotchpotch' of ideas that make up Harn, If I were to GM a Harnic campaign based solely on 8th-10th century Northern Europe I would really miss certain aspects of Harn as written.

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"The woods are alive with the smell of his coming!" Ilviran chant.

I see most of the religions/churches of Harn as having originated as mystery cults.

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"The woods are alive with the smell of his coming!" Ilviran chant.

I agree with this, though 11th-12th works as well.

If there is one thing with Harn that is probably causes the most suspension of disbelief for me, it is the combining of a myriad of different times and cultures on the same little island.

Let's see, I want Turkish type horse people that are horse archers, but less advanced than even the Huns or Scyths, more like semi-neolithic horse barbarians. Throw in some neolithic to early iron age barbarians, but without agricutlure to make them seem really barbarous, add a roman type culture (or maybe Byzantine), add some feudal cultures, a nordic one and a semi-celtich one, throw in a guild and heraldic system more advanced and powerful than the late middle ages, and Whala! we have the island of Harn

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

There is a natural limit in that to advance in magic you need to do research and study. It would be straightforward to seize power with magic but afterward an enormous distraction and a detriment to further advance. Even with magic there are only so many hours in a day.

Upsetting the mundanes is also another distraction to minimize. Sure they would win but again what will make up for lost time. And after that nth rebellion it going to get old.

Finally in Harn (and many other RPGs) access to powerful magic is limited by one's personal characteristics. High Aura, High Magery, High Power, whatever it is there is a pyramid where only a few have even the potential to be at the top. So they could be a King, Tyrant, or Emperor but then that what they would doing, not studying magic.

The result in my opinion is that you would have a handful of mage-kings at some point but most mages want to focus their magic. These mages will realize that at some point they need to get the would-be mage-kings under control so they don't screw it up for the rest of them.

Another reason for a culture of mages with rules and laws is the simple human desire of not having to live in a dog eat dog world. Again having to continually defend oneself from rival mages is distracting so eventually at some point a group of mages will band together, find a solution that allows them to co-exist, and then recruit others and eliminate those that won't adhere.

Now this is a long term view. For any type of campaign involving mages you can set at a point in time that reflect how you want mages to be. For example if you want a campaign where mages prey on each other then a situation similar to the Dark Age after the fall of Rome would work perfect for that. Not even mages are immune to the larger forces of history. If you want mage-kings then going back to an earlier period where divine kings ruled city-states and kingdoms would work well. Think Sumeria and the Ancient Middle East.

So for Harn it make sense to me that that the situation with the Shek-Pvar exists and flourishes. They can leave the ruling to the mundanes and still have the power to manipulate the situation if it gets out of hand.