This is a spin-off from another thread, (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12769). In that thread, pokep had suggested that the myth of Halea, Naveh & Dekejis could have originated as a political allegory about Dalkeshian expansion into Karejian territory in the second century TR. I noted that a potential challenge to this idea was the fact that the Halean Church wasn't established until the 4th century TR. pokep, in turn, suggested that while the pontificate was established in 4th century, the church was much older.

This is not such a simple question, I think. I'm splitting off this discussion because it really deserves a topic of its own, IMHO:



I'm not so sure that's true, although I suppose it depends what you mean by 'the faith' and 'well-established'... and whether you accept what is published in canon.

Gods of Harn tells us that, while there were various "hedonistic cults" that existed from time immemorial, which may have been linked to Halea (or maybe Peoni), they lacked many of the features now considered essential components of Haleanism. They also weren't organized, had little contact with each other, and made no attempts to proselytize. GOH tells us these cults lacked many of the features of modern Halean belief and practice as well. It wasn't until Merodyne the Pale (in the 3rd century TR) that Halea, in her modern form, appears to have been proclaimed, and that her worship was spread throughout SW Lythia, that Helas became a well-known center of Halean worship. And it wasn't until the 4th century, when there was an actual church structure established with a pontiff. This is pretty much echoed in HMR and Venarive (although HMR actually places Merodyne a century later).

So per canon, some early hedonism cults existed prior to the 4th century-- and they were related to Halea (probably), but they weren't organized in any way, there was no church with its head in Helas, or the like. So yeah, sure, I accept pokep's claim that Haleanism existed before then. And... to bring this back to his interpretation of the myth, it seems very unlikely that given such a state of pre-Merodyne "Haleanism", it seems to be unlikely that Halea would have been picked as a symbol of Karejia in some 2nd century political allegory of Karejian/Dalkesh conflict-- because there would have been no particular sense in having her serve as symbol for Karejia-- something that would make sense only after the 4th century once her church gets established and Lythia-wide recognition as a powerful Karejian-based institution. Or that's how I'd see it.... when viewed through the lens of canon.

That said, canon is highly problematic on this particular point, and contains seeming contradictions. Specifically, if the Gods of Harn account is taken to be basically true, then it seems very hard to imagine how if Halea could be one of the gods mentioned in the Libram of the Pantheon, which was written on Hârn at the beginning of the 2nd century TR. This suggests to me that the account of the Halean church in canon dramatically under-reports the widespread nature and influence of pre-Merodyne Halean hedonism cults. Or, perhaps, it suggests that the Libram of the Pantheon's text as been dramatically expanded over the years, and that when the worship of new gods (such as Halea and Sarajin) came to the Harn, the "Libram" was altered to describe them.

Thoughts?

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Yes.

I have some too.

You mentioned that the pre-Merodyne Halean hedonism cults lacked many of the features now considered essential components of Haleanism. I would put this down to a massive re-write during the organisation of the official Halean Church where elements they thought they needed were simply drawn from whole cloth.

Alternatively (and more likely) is that they were present but were minor aspects that were co-opted when Halean canon was being developed.

We know that was done to some elements of the Christian Church dogma and the Bible during the Council of Nicea in AD 325, so I see no reason why it couldn't also apply in this situation.

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Leitchy
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It may be worthwhile to look closer at what those elements are. GOH specifically tells us:



In other words, the early hedonism cults had the concept of pleasure-seeking, living for the moment, etc. But they lacked this element of bargaining-- the notion of the goddess as also being the patron of commerce, trade, contracts, and law.



Possibly, but I think that the changing social world of 3rd and 4th century TR make the 'whole cloth' theory plausible. We're told, per GOH, Merydyne's teachings "attracted numerous adherents, particularly among the emergent merchant class". I think the key word there is 'emergent'. Is it an accident that this new concept, linking an old 'pleasure goddess' to law, trade, commerce, haggling, etc. developed at exactly the same time as there was a new mercantile class developing in the Venarian Sea? It seems kind of unlikely to me... but you never know.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

By the way, I don't know whether you were intending this or not, but your comment about about 'a massive re-write' makes me think about the fact that the Harnic goddess Halea is a fusion of two separate deities from Robin's original Nushenic pantheon. In that pantheon, the goddess Halea was "The Maker of Bargains" and associated with wealth, opulence, self-interest, and other aspects of commerce, but she was not a sexuality/pleasure goddess. A separate goddess, the not-so-subtly named Hedoni, fulfilled that role.

It seems to me that the story we get in GOH, of how there were earlier cults of hedonism, from which the concept of Halea as the Maker of Bargains was absent, can be read as a a kind of in-joke about the re-write that took place wherein these two separate goddess from Robin's initial pantheon were combined into one.

_________________
-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

I'd say that's pretty likely the case.

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Leitchy
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Well, some might say it is the world's oldest profession.

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This would be an interesting wrench to throw in - Halea and Peoni were/are the same god, the worshippers worshipping different aspects of the god.

Fertility cults are often tied to an "earth mother" on terra.

The bargaining aspect could be Peonians praying for a sucessful child birth, a good harvest, etc. etc.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Yeah, I've often thought that Halea could be regarded as Peoni with a makeover, made more appealing for for a mercantile society (or at least class) who does not depend on the fertility of the earth for sustenance, but on their own cunning, charm, ruthlessless, and wit.


Oh yeah, one can certainly extrapolate connections there− the ‘bargain’ of Peoni is the granting of bountiful harvests, fertility in the home and fields through labor etc. Whereas that of Halea is more fabulous wealth gained through other means.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Since everyone is putting their two pence in, I will simply restate my interpertation of the religious dynamic. I've always considered all three of the Goddesses as different aspects of an original Jarin female fetility Goddess whose adherents splintered off after a cataclysmic event. Such as an invasion or expansion of a new masculine warrior cult (aka the Agrikans).

The Peonians are the survivors of their new Agrikan overlords. The Laranians rise up as defenders of the downtrodden masses. The Haleans cut a deal with the Agrikans and thus "prostitue" themselves for a better deal than the rest of the peasants are getting.

If you look at the tale of Ambrathas (mythological founder of the Laranian church) you can easily envision a child born of an Agrikan warlord and a Peonian wife/concubine. The father is always away campaigning while the mother is left to raise the child in a most un-Agrikan manner. When the child becomes leader of his fiefdom after the death of his father, he tries to moderate the harsh policies of his sire. Several rival warlords sense weakness and try to take away his lands although he managed to hold onto them for over 20 years. This earns him the adoration of his peasants and the story is retold often enough to become the basis for the entire Laranian religion.

The Karejians however decide that they need to work out a better relationship with their new overlords. They start doing whatever is necessary to get out from under the boot of the Agrikans, including providing sexual favors. Eventually it becomes both justified and codified into a new religion. This would allow the Halean church to have as ancient root as the Peonian religion itself while the modern Pontificate itself is a simply an organization of an already existing dynamic.

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...and I'm not dead yet...

I prefer the pre-rewrite dichotomy and may use it in my games. Another option is to view the "ritual prostitution" aspect is simply "the most basic of bargains" or "oldest of bargains..." But then, I also treat the "Concordat" as a peculiarity of Emelrene-Melderyn origin that doesn't apply beyond their region. It lets me take liberties when gaming off the island - different peoples, different gods.

Possibly, but I think that the changing social world of 3rd and 4th century TR make the 'whole cloth' theory plausible. We're told, per GOH, Merydyne's teachings "attracted numerous adherents, particularly among the emergent merchant class". I think the key word there is 'emergent'. Is it an accident that this new concept, linking an old 'pleasure goddess' to law, trade, commerce, haggling, etc. developed at exactly the same time as there was a new mercantile class developing in the Venarian Sea?[/quote]

Is Haleanism the Scientology-Slash-Amway of Lythia? You decide!

To me it is rather intriguing to decide is it doctrine of the Halean Church attractive to the merchant class per se or is a typical Halean priestess viewed by merchant class as having attractive perse.

Hyvää juhannusta kaikille suomalaisille!