Prompted by the great discussions on trade and on Arthur Reyes' terrific new calendar, I'm moved to ask: Who gets the rents, collects the fees, and keeps order at the fairs? Just how are they organized?

Obviously, the answers to these questions will vary, but the general implication (or assumption) seems to be that the fairs are all owned by the local royalty or nobility. Are any owned by local temples or monasteries? Are any “split” among multiple owners? Do any correspond to, say, an important feast day for a local saint? This could be used to explain specific start days, and would contribute to making religion a little thicker on the ground.

I think there are plot benefits connected with these issues, too. Here are a few that have come to mind:

If a local temple has the rights to the rents from, e.g., the Harden spring fair, what happens if the caravan is delayed so that it arrives after the time specified for the fair? Will the rents go to the earl? To the king?

If a fair is specified to run for 3 days, what happens if the traders stick around for 6? There apparently are instances in medieval England of royal collectors showing up to take the fees for the extra time, leading to lawsuits and attempts by the local sponsor to get the licensed time for the fair extended (see, e.g., Ellen W. Moore, The Fairs of Medieval England: An Introductory Study, apparently still in print from PIMS).

If the caravan passes through a particular town or port to reach the site of the main regional fair, we can expect the inhabitants to do what they can to delay the merchants or keep them trading locally -- again the potential for lawsuits and (armed) conflicts.

Harry Butler

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Consider for a moment the Maker's Morn festival in Leriel. Orbaal Kingdom module states that it was originally a religious observance only, but it has grown into a general festival. I'm not sure this is true, but Ilvir may have tax-exempt status there, but the church is certainly going to gain some fees from visitors.

With lots of pilgrims arriving to head to Araka-Kalai, I can see how the event changed in function over the years. The mangai looks for markets, and they saw the opportunity to cater to many pilgrims. Merchants timed their arrivals to occur during Maker's Morn, and so the Prince of Leriel taxes them, but not the pilgrims.

Now you have two different groups of people: merchants and pilgrims. Merchants pay the Prince, and pilgrims pay the church. You might even see merchants paying the church for the right to set up shop within the pilgrim's commons.

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I guess that's the sort of thing I'm wondering about. I don't think the two groups are necessarily different; the compartmentalization -- and effacement of the sociopolitical role -- of religion has always been strikingly dissonant when considering the "medieval" feel. I do agree with your last sentence here, though -- the fact that a tradesman has paid the hawking fee to the local government doesn't necessarily guarantee (I would think) the right to a particular place from which to sell things.

I can envision another order of development: the Prince of Leriel, seeing the gathering of pilgrims and the localized boom for Maker's Morn, proclaims a fair for the first day, or first tenday, perhaps remitting the hawking tax in order to induce merchants to make the trek to his isolated locale (and thus reducing, if he gets the right mix, the costs he has to pay for goods) and giving the Ilviran temple rights to the rents and fees collected that day (those days), as support for the church.

Or another possible example. Let's say that among the vows Balesir made to Larani during the Treasure War was increased support for her church in Chybisa. Perhaps he vowed the proceeds of the Burzyn Fair (or the Geda Fair, another source of the friction between the previous lords of Geda and the crown) to the Church of Larani; perhaps these form his subsidy to Ulmstane.

What do you think?

Harry Butler

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And once induced, the Prince reinstates the hawking tax. The guilds, seeing profit to be had, have no other choice but to come to some agreement with the prince. That's how Chicago works, and we're talking now, not 1,000 years ago. I envision a constant struggle between the rising merchant class and the nobility. The merchants see nobility as obstructing profit, the nobility sees them as a special kind of money making peasant instead of the kind they usually work with. (kind, haha! I'm hilarious)



Geda Fair? Where is that mentioned? How long does it last? When is it?

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Or he simply says that although there's no hawking tax for goods sold at the fair, goods sold after the fair are subject to the tax (particularly effective if the official fair occurs just on Savor 1).



Well, there's no mention of an official fair, but in the Geda article we do have the following:

I'd extrapolate a one-day Geda Fair scheduled to coincide with the arrival of the first (or biggest) caravan from Thay.

Harry Butler

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That seems more of a ploy appropriate for the Harnic Nobility, and not the Jarin Princes, but who's to say?



Thanks for the info.

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[quote="Arthur Reyes"]That seems more of a ploy appropriate for the Harnic Nobility, and not the Jarin Princes, but who's to say?

Granted. But any such circumstance, in which there may be significant delay costs, could add a sense of urgency to the travels of PC mercantylers. And a surprise reinstatement or increase of a tax could turn a profitable journey into a loss-maker.

***Spoiler***



***Spoiler***










If we posit tax relief in a Maker's Morn fair, the current fiscal crisis in Leriel because of increased tribute demands could prompt a rescinding of the tax break. Then, yep, negotiations to a compromise with the Prince, or else, as also happens, the merchants move to some other location and the fair fades away.

****

Thanks for the comments, Arthur!

Harry Butler

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Not too sure about this. It's probably less a fair than it is a scrum around the caravan, with Geda mercantylers shouting and haggling at the top of their voices for a while. After the shouting has stopped and the mercantylers go off for an ale and lunch at the local tavern, the scribes are left to sort out the mess of orders, and the labourers unload the requisite goods. Then the caravan moves on the next day. It probably started more as an opportunity to rest the animals and repair damaged carts and wagons in relative safety, rather than a fair. Once there, though, local mercantylers took advantage of the situation, of course.

Calling it the "Geda Fair" implies stalls and such, an orderly market fair with people parading through and looking at wares on display. I don't see Geda like that at all. It may get to that one day, but probably not. The Genin Trail caravan is bound for the biggest fair around, and they are likely to get a much better price for their goods in Tashal than in Geda.

Just my feeling, but not every commercial transaction needs a Fair.

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It makes about as much sense to have a fair in Geda as to have a fair in Harden, that's true. I don't think it a necessary extrapolation to have a "fair" in Geda, any more than in a number of other locales, but if I were looking for such a formal market to provide rents to a religious institution in Chybisa, and for some reason chose not to have it be the rents and fees from Burzyn, Geda would be a good candidate. I'm not sure that the only route to a Fair is natural evolution; it can, with distinctly varying success, be created.

Not every commercial transaction needs a Fair, but not every Fair need make commercial sense, either, in the long term.

Harry Butler

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Slightly off topic, but related.....bonding fees and tolls.

If the caravan stops in Harden or Geda for a day (places without city walls), but there is no real "fair" or scrum of bids for wholesale lots, would the merchants owe the bonding fee for the goods that sit in their carts? Or does that only apply to goods actually put up in the bonding house?

Tolls....the map shows only the royal toll houses, but what of the tolls and taxes referenced in HarnManor? Does the caravan pay a toll at every manor through which Genin's Trail passes?

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Oh dear...

I've just looked through Harden again ... and found something I missed (I have no idea how). It notes that the Tashal caravans only stop overnight... so no Harden Fair (at least not one that delays the caravan...)

The same article also notes that the seasonal caravans are exempt from tolls. So I guess this would apply to Geda & other minor stops as well.

Jeremy

Sophia, as far as I can tell, the caravans...in fact, all travellers...will only pay tolls at royal tollhouses, and on bridges, etc. Except where exempt, of course.

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I take that to mean the Melderyni king has exempted them from tolls in Melderyn. The Geda article seems to say the caravan pays the standard tolls there and is part of the baron's budgeting.


Until a day or so ago, I also had the idea tolls were collected only at spots marked as royal toll houses. But I recently came across the bit on HarnManor page 26 where it tells us that fiefholders are getting a tidy sum from "tolls on roads, bridges, and fords on their fief", so I'm re-examining my eariler conception.

Anyway, I ask for other interpretations as a check because it will affect slightly my comparison of the cost of shipping vs caravaning. Not by much, mind you, but there are 9 manors along the Genin Trail in Chybisa alone (not counting the marked royal toll houses).

Re the bonding fee, though, I'm wondering if it really apllies to a caravan that stops only overnight at someplace like Harden or Geda vs a mercantyler that puts it up while waiting to find a buyer.

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I find this bit in HarnView:


So, at least at regular martketplaces, I'm thinking it is split...the mangai controls the space and rents it out, keeps order, probably settles small disputes among its members, etc. The local government, though, will have some system for levying and collecting hawking taxes.

Now, if the "marketplace" is the green of some abbey, then I suppose it is the abbey that fills the role given to the Mangai (above).

If it is the town or ville's "common" instead of the usual fixed marketplace then I suppose there will be room for some interesting wrinkles, with local custom varying from place to place, and probably always a source of some tension between Mangai and the owner of the space.

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The collection of tolls is a royal prerogative, a manor can only collect tolls on a road or bridge if the sovereign has farmed out the toll. In which case, the sovereign gets a fixed sum a year, and the lord of the manor gets to keep the excess for himself.

I wouldn't expect every manor on the Genin Trail to collect tolls; this would quickly make that trail too expensive to use and caravans would make a new trail that doesn't go anywhere near those manors. Tolls are really only usefully collected at choke points; places where traffic has to go, such as a ford or bridge, where the expense of finding and using another trail outweigh the expense of the toll.

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Is that stated somewhere officially? HarnManor 26 explicitly states:
No mention of a royal prerogative, or that the fiefholder is merely a toll collector. Indeed, as written, the sentence clearly implies local tolls for local reasons. I think tolls on "the royal highways" are a royal prerogative, but I don't see that necessarily extending across the board.

I can see your position as a viable interpretation for the more structured ("good") feudal states, at least in theory, but it certainly wouldn't apply in Orbaal, possibly not in Tharda, and unlikely in practice in any country with a weak central government that was dominated by resistant nobles (e.g., Rethem).

Not necessarily applicable to the example given, but a local lord may not want caravans to come through.


I count three streams on the Chybisa map that must be crossed before reaching the outskirts of Burzyn (where there's another), and another to the north at Meldun, so there are more "choke points" available -- and not many alternative routes. Tolls are also usefully collected where traffic wants to go, because of ease or safety of travel.

Harry Butler

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Thanks for your comments, Sophia. I hadn't recalled that bit in HarnView. I believe there is a great deal of local variation in market custom, especially given the personal nature of government on Lythia -- for example, a local ruler with a hatred of merchants, or of a particular kind of merchant, might end up driving the merchants away.

I see the potential for some competition, too, with Lady X going after Lord Y's revenues by inducing the market to move because of better rates. I'm thinking of the Western plot of the competition between two towns for the new railroad.

Harry Butler

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OK, I'll concede that it's arguable, but the following from HârnWorld, under Taxes & Tolls [Harn 15], to my mind, strongly implies that tolls are government prerogatives only:

However, as I said, it's arguable, and thus you can certainly have your version of Harn the way you described.
Oh yes he does! There's almost nothing better for a manor than to be on an important and regular trade route. It makes your holding much more valuable. More value equals more money, more money equals more political power. Trust me, there isn't a single noble on Hârn who wouldn't do anything to get a major trade route like the Genin Trail coming through his backyard.

Which are other examples of what I said; cost. Easy of travel means reduced cost, safety means less guards means reduced cost. Avoiding tolls means reduced cost. Remember that a toll is charged for every animal, and every cart/wagon, and every person in a caravan. This can add up to a handsome chunk o' change!

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Isn't that the idea, at least from the fief-holders point of view?



Maybe sometimes, and maybe even most times, but not always if what we see at Geda is idicative. There, tolls are charged only on vehicles and animals. I'm not sure how intentional that was on the part of the writers, but essentially that scheme levies tolls only against those better positioned to pay it while not taxing the odd peasant or pilgrim on his way to somewhere. I'm sure there are other variations at other locales.



It is exactly the ability to toll and tax the caravans, methinks, that will make fiefs along those routes more valuable (and with a higher HM "Trade Index") than those that are more removed from the main highways and byways. As we have noted, the caravan is not going to stop for a fair at every little one-horse dorp so, for most fiefholders on the caravan route, revenues that accrue from proximity to a trade route are the result of tolls on the caravan's passage and not the trade they bring to the manor's village.

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One 'quaint' medieval custom that might well apply to both fair revenue and tolls is that of 'farming'. This is not in the sense of agriculture, but in the (original) medieval sense that gives us the phrase 'faming out'. The deal is this:

The king or a major noble has the right to a piece of revenue - be it from a fair, tolls, a manor or what have you, but (s)he can't be bothered to collect it or simply wants to be distanced from it while not losing the revenue.

Another, often a knight but I think quite probably in the case of fairs the Mangai, wants or needs to make some cash. They agree to pay the holder of the right to the fair or toll a fixed sum in return for the right to collect the cash due.

This method was often used for such things as Sheriffs posts, typically with the post going to the highest bidder. Such holders tended to be especially keen in their pursuit of what was owed and so became quite unpopular - it is speculated that a certain Sheriff of Nottingham may have been one such... (Take this with a large pinch of salt!)

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From Leitchy:


Sure, but I think the key portion of the quote is the phrase, "not always legitimately,..."

Consider this, from HM (1986, whichever edition that is), Campaign pg 8, section "Tolls":


The distinction between "official" tolls and organized banditry is important. People other than the king's men may be trying to extract toll fees from a caravan; whether legitimate or not, it's a real issue for those passing through. Another point to bear in mind when selecting a route.

This fits nicely into the idea of town markets, I think. Cities and freetowns might be more problematic, but the market of a baronial keep-town is very likely owned by the baron. Farming out its administration to the Mangai would suit him fine, while still giving him the benefit of some of its revenue. Nice.

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I key in phrases such as "various authorities". Does the baron not have the right to levy a toll or tax within his barony? And, in the feudal construct, is the lord of the manor also not free to administer his own fief in a similar manner? Each kingdom may vary, I suppose, with different rights held by the king and not always granted with the fief.

I'm about ready to write this off as just another minor disconnect in the published material...without the ability to levy tolls, manors on the major routes are actually at a slight disavantage, suffering the transit of not-always savory characters with no legal right to tap their purses, and such an understanding undermines the rules offered in HarnManor with its assumptions about "Trade Index"....on the other hand, if every Manorial lord has the right to levy tolls, why does the poor Baron of Geda, burdened with a royal toll house, have to turn over half of his take to the king?

I did a quick Google search on Medieval Toll and got this back. Not quite what I expected, but still relevant!

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Exactly the way it seems to me. "Government" isn't necessarily the equivalent of "royal government."



Yep, a caravan that simply passed through could very well be more costly than revenue-producing. In rainy weather, especially, they churn up the roads; they muddy the creek if there's a ford, or even just with animals drinking there; the no-accounts in the caravan rob the locals, or start fights and put local workers out of commission; they can spread disease; etc. Why endure the headache unless (a) you are forced to do so, or (b) you get something from it? That's why I think it not impossible for a lord to disdain having a caravan through. Whether that makes economic sense is a question, but if sickness spread through the fief on account of a caravan that came through last year, or he suspects that a couple runaways made use of a caravan to escape, or every time a caravan comes through he has to deal with crimes, or he simply distrusts merchants as a class, it would be possible for an individual lord to act "irrationally" and discourage them. (HarnManor 26 provides some of the same reasons for a lord to discourage trade.)

In another post,

HarnManor 26 states that locals (fief residents) are rarely charged tolls.



I agree. Different pHarns will go different ways to resolve it.

Harry Butler

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Stop! Pay the toll.

One advantage of charging even a very nominal toll is that those who must pay it have to stop. If they stop they might stay the night, do some repairs, shoe some horses, pick up some fodder, in short, stop them and they might buy something. This is a way to make up for the disadvantages of having strangers in your territory. Get them to open their purses.

I always think the toll houses on the interstate miss a bet by not selling those cookies.

Wm

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