That should likely be the Azerani Language (pehaps a more arcaic form) if indeed the orthodox religion came from there.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

J. Vilkka wrote

What do you mean by "historical"? I ask this because it will have a tremendous impact on the rest; the theology and structure of the religion that you are trying to develop for Harn. And if you are trying to keep everything as close to Christianity as possible you really have a huge task in front of you if you don't adopt wholesale the structure and doctrine of the Christian Church. If you don't either go into the minute details or adopt wholesale then the tapestry you are trying to weave will simply unravel when it comes under closer scrutinity.

So, really the question that you need to answer first is how real do you want this whole thing to be for your players? If it isn't going to play a big part in your game then it really isn't a big deal but if it playes a crucial role then that's an entirely different game altogether.

If I've missed that part of the conversation then I appologize. You've picked a topic that piques my personal and professional currosity but I've not had as much time as I would like to follow this thread.

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Fides quarens intellectum, Saint Anselm

I constantly feel the itch to answer in J. Vilkka's stead. I apologize for my giving in to that itch here

I don't think that it is important if the redeemer of the faith J. Vilkka is developing for his P-Harn is a historical figure or not. By medieval standards it is at least very hard to determine (in an modern way) if Jesus had actually lived (by the way: there is still no proof for the existence of Jesus in my P-Terra ).
Historicality(?) has, in this case, nothing to do with realness. Jesus was and still is real to the believers in christian faith. Period. No further explanation needed.

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"The purpose of the game is to entertain the players and the GM. The rest is just semantics."
-by Munin from the forum-

I think High Azeryani, specifically, serves that function.

Of course, this raises a really itneresting question, though, if, as J. Vilkka suggests in an earlier post, that he plans on having the Bible actually *be* the sacred text of his Christinanized harnic religion.

The texts of the Christian Bible are, in the original, written in Hebrew (the Old Testament)---and in Greek (the New Testament). In medieval western Europe, of course, the latin translation (known as the Vulgate) was almost universally used.

If one wants to introduce Christianity and the the *Bible* as we know it in Harn, that raises neat questions about what language(s) it would in, which I think might mean having to wrestle with -- at least roughly-- who wrote its various parts and when. This in turn, might mean having to figure who were the Lythian hebrews who wrote the Old Testament (and what the analog of Hebrew would be)-- and what was the language used by the followers of the Lythian Jesus for writing their gospels and letters.

Or maybe not? Maybe you could just say that, regardless of where and when the Lythian Jesus lived and taught-- or what language his followers used for their gospels and letters-- all these things are just now all best known (at least in Harn) in a High Azeryani Vulgate version and fudge the details of everything else?

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

In using the word 'historical' I didn't mean to suggest modern sense of historicity being a play here, in the sense that Jesus was a subject of critical analysis and interpretation of documentary evidence. Rather, I mean that, it is a critical element of Christian belief/mythology/legend-- call it what you will-- that Jesus *really* did live-- and die-- and be resurrected on our earth, in places that actually existed and still exist. The gospels tell of his life, giving us the name of the place he was born, where he taught, where he died, where he came back from. These aren't just vaguely mythical places-- not even in medieval Europe. These were real, actual places that one could go to or on pilgrimmage-- or seek to claim through crusading armies. Knowing where their Lythian analogs are would seem to me to be important.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Well, point taken. What you state is important if J. Vilkka wants to introduce a redeemer at all. I do not think he needs one to make his religion work. Let us see what his take is.

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"The purpose of the game is to entertain the players and the GM. The rest is just semantics."
-by Munin from the forum-

I got the impression he did from some of his comments:



At least, I infeerred that from the references to "Saviour" "Jesus" and "Christ".

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Historisity has everything to do with any religion. Otherwise it just becomes another philosophy which anyone is free to accept or reject. But when something or someone is grounded in objective evidence, that is evidence outside of ourselves, which history provides one way or the other it provides a platform upon which to build the arguement being put forward as being authentic.

There really wasn't anything in the way of abstract thinking for the ancient and medieval mind; it had to be concrete. The gods of Greece and Rome were attempts at trying to understand how the world worked. The Greek philosphers were doing the same thing only they were removing their gods from their equation. Both were attempts at concreteness.

The one thing I've noticed with postmodernism is its insistence upon everything being relative there are no absolutes. What's ironic about this method of thinking is that it is in and of itself an absolute. Something that doesn't exist exists even to postmodernists! It's like taking a jigsaw puzzle and trying to make pieces fit where they don't fit at all because that's where I want that piece to go at this moment but in the next five minutes I might change my mind and move that same piece elsewhere instead. What's worse though is when people get frustrated and throw out the puzzle because they can't understand how all the pieces fit together.

Stino, your use of the term "real" is interesting. What do you mean by it? Are you approaching from the Greek concept of "noos"?

Besides which modern credible scholarship has moved on from the debate about an historical person called Jesus and did he really live or not.

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Fides quarens intellectum, Saint Anselm

Nope, since that concept is unknown to me. Unfortunately, a quick search of the net didn't give me enlightenmet on this subject and since I am at work I have no other way of gaining knowlege at hand.

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"The purpose of the game is to entertain the players and the GM. The rest is just semantics."
-by Munin from the forum-

From the beginning my intention has been to use Xianity as closely modeled after the medieval version as possible. That is, the claim that Christ was incarnated and lived as Jesus somewehere in Kethira, is central to my Harnic Xianity.

And the "holy" book the Church uses, is Azeryani Vulgate, I guess. The equivalents of Greek and Hebrew will probably not be needed, but it would be nice to know if there are such equivalents.

Anyway, that's what I've been thinking. But I can still change much of this without problems.

I don't think theology will be a big issue in my campaign, only practical religion will, and the ability of the players (especially the mendicant's player) to make references to the religion, quotes from the bible perhaps, and such things. Religion is basically just scenery and furnishings, not the story or focus of the story.

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http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/viljou75/
http://rpgandboardgaming.blogspot.com/
http://jounivilkka.blogspot.com/

Thanks for clarifying.

With that in mind, I have two questions.

1) If religion is just going to be "scenery and furnishings" in your game, and theology really going to be central to the story, I find myself thinking that trying to work out a scheme of Christianizing the Harnic religions may not actually be necessary? I mean... certainly, Laranism and Peonism offer a lot of the superficial trappings of medieval Christian practice (veneration of saints/martyrs, keping of relics, and even on some vague level clerical practices... e.g. Peonian celibacy"). It's not really too hard to just take Christian saints and rename them-- and give them the same attributes and histories. Even the iconography can be pretty similar (e.g. the Laranian 'stylized' sword looking suspiciously like a cross.). Same with biblical quotes, etc.-- It's not too hard to imagine that these faiths might have famous quotations that could parallel those in the Bible. ("Turn the other cheek.." "The meek shall inherit..." could be very Peonian). If you want founders/redeemers, maybe you can even play up the roles that the early founders played in those faiths. If your goal really is only to have more familiar scenery and color-- and not to delve into issues of theology or history of anything in depth, might it not be lot simpler just to play up or intensify the surface resemblances between those two faiths and Christianity?

2) Alternately, if you really want the most thoroughly Christian-like religion possible, even if only for scenery and furnishings, why not just play in medieval Europe-- or some magical version of it? That way, you actually have the medieval Christian church already in place, with all of its practical elements, and there's certainly no shortage of source materials for you to draw on. It shouldn't be too hard to introduce magic and orcs and monsters into it, either. That might also introduce a more familiar political and social background as well.

I ask these not to suggest that you're project isn't interesting or to say you shouldn't do it-- but I guess I just wonder whether there might not be a simpler solution to having the kind of religious color/background/scenery that you want?

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

I don't think what I'm doing is very difficult - at least what I've done so far hasn't been. If I need to look for places to fit the roles of Holy Land, &c., I might have some problems, but the campaign will take place mostly in Kaldor, perhaps a bit in other parts of Harn, so that's not going to be likely.

And I'm using Harn as the setting for a number of reasons. The main reason is that I have just about all Harn material. I do have Lion Heart (?) also, but I'm not using that right now. (And if, or when I make historical adventures, I won't have any orcs running around! ) Harn fits my game world needs well for the most part, providing a world similar enough to RW to seem familiar, but being different enough to allow the fantasy elements that I find difficult to use in historical settings. Also, it would be very difficult to compile the equivalent amounts of information of medieval England, for example. It's just a lot easier to use Harn.

But I don't like Harn's religions. I prefer to replace them with Xianity, which for the most part seems to work rather well - the way I've done it, I've been able to retain the mechanics without changes. By using Xianity, I also avoid having to learn all the stuff about Harnic religions.

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http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/viljou75/
http://rpgandboardgaming.blogspot.com/
http://jounivilkka.blogspot.com/

Closest thing I could find was Noology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noology



IMO Yes as time progressed the languages of the "Church" and "religion" changed. (Aramaic is not the official language of the church although it is what Christ spoke, (Probably not a 6' tall white man with a halo like most of his pictures although if that was the case he would have certainly have stood out among his contempories ) This is a very intriguing thread the more I think about it.

It is important to remember our cultures and environments shade our perceptions. Not being raised more or less in a sandy dry desert type region when I envisioned the Mighty River Jordan I pictured the Mississppi River one of the mightiest rivers I knew of from personal experience growing up so I was surprised to discover that my tour bus was longer than the width of the Mighty River Jordan at numerous points (miles and miles as far as I could see and not right at the beginning in the middle) when I actually had the chance to visit Jerusalem and other holy sites but if I had been raised in a desert where natural water is scarce if would be a mighty river. The Great Lakes would have been called the Great Seas.

You can easily have several or all Harnic languages including Ancient as time progressed due to schisms and politics (Compromise) in the church along with the absorption and assimilation of other cults, faiths and religions as the church and religion grew and expanded over time. (The key factor is how far back your Christ "died" (Are they still crucifying cultists of the new religion at the coliseum or does the religion and religious hierarchy have a few centuries or millenia under their belt?).

Of course there can be the "Heresy" that the religion is a huge con fabricated by a master con artist like "Saint Peter" in the real world. In most societies religious leaders and priests are respected and have "status". (The Con/Philosphy founded on the premise of Belief and Indoctrination Promises Rewards in the Afterlife which are very difficult to prove or disprove during one's life along with giving and tithing to the church and it's caretaker priests. That can be the Great Secret of the Highest church leaders after hitting a certain point of time there is little credible historical evidence that one of the greatest living men in history Jesus the Son of God actually walked the earth (At a certain critical mass the philosophy would take on a life of it's own whether based on the truth or a lie and the priests would have a vested interest in maintaining or improving the status quo) while historical evidence of lesser figures of the same time period are available.

In a Harn campaign such a philosophy could be easily adopted by any one or an assortment of the minor Harnic demi-gods in a P Harn (Lots of room for all those Church Saints)). (Perhaps it is "easier" for a P Harn demi - god to interact with Harn if invoked by a believer than the influence he or she can have on Harn for the same amount of divine effort or energy without aiding, interceding on behalf of or responding to one of the faithful, a believer).

Using the God/Stick anology in Harn it is easy for a person to break a single Stick but increasingly more difficult as more of the same size sticks are added to the mix. So the Stick analogy would work for a bunch of Gods/Demi-Gods working together to make a dominant religion/pantheon (Leader God and Patron Saints) in Harn.

Originally spoken in Aramaic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language which was recorded and translated into different languages by travellers, scholars, pilgrims and priests. At various points in time and history different languages have been the dominant language of the church but locale also becomes a big factor with translation of the bible, holy writings and scriptures into the local spoken and written language for the laymen.

Greek and Latin are big because so many more literary works were written/published and copied in empires so quite a few texts survived from those points in time. Greek translation texts are closer historically to the source of the original writings and teachings (translation texts also usually cite some of the translation differences, what the word meant in the context of the times and culture of the original language) you end up with fewer translation errors changing languages which can place a huge emphasis on a single word or words and a sentence or text).

There is a liturgical language for each religion, if that's what you mean, but no single "tongue of the educated" in the way that Western Europe had. If I had to pick one I would choose Emela.

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Balesir
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- Eschew Obfuscation!

J. Vikka

I said it earlier and I'll say it again that depending on your campaign will determine how in depth you need to get.

What most people don't get is that doctrine shapes the "practical religion". What you believe shapes and forms how you react to a given situation. You can also have the opposite happen too. An example from Christianity deals with Communion. If your doctrine says that Communion is only a symbol then it doesn't matter who partakes of Communion. However, if you believe that Communion is the true body and blood of Christ then who partakes of Communion changes.

So, in your game if you take the stance that religion is what we do for and to influence your god then your religion will take a certain definite shape (this is how almost all of the worlds religions look at the divine). If you view religion as what God does for mankind then how your religion expresses itself will have a very different shape.

I know that you want to keep this as simple as possible and how you work it out between you and your players is fine. As long as it works for you and your players. What I'm trying to get across is that what you are wanting to do is complicated and the more true to the real world that you want to stay the more complicated things will get. Hence the more at home you and your players feel in the gaming environment the more involved and complicated things become. The important thing though is have fun!

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Fides quarens intellectum, Saint Anselm

Greek ~ Karejian, or possibly it's predecessor/progenitor Kalruia. Aramaic is tricky, but Besha might be taken as a rough equivalent? In the end it depends where you decide to locate the "Christ" figure's home.


Like Jim Chokey, I am wondering what impels you to choose this line of development. The potential pitfalls run deep. What, for example, do you plan to do about the Melderyni blockade and the Shek Pvar codes? Without the Concordat of the Illimitable Tome there is no justification for either, regardless whether the Concordat is 'real' or a feature of the collective Kethiran psyche stimulated by the existence of interworld 'gates' and the resultant perils.

I think you have to either remodel, or at least re-justify, several of the underpinning features of the Kethiran cultural fabric if the religious backdrop becomes 'Christian'. Do you plan to have other Terran faiths present, also (Islam, Judaeism, Paganism, Zoroastrianism)? What is 'special' about Christianity, and why would Christianity itself develop in the same way that it did on Terra in the absence of these influences on it? If the core of your issue is that Christianity, not polytheism or pantheism or whatever, moulded the psyche that produced medieval feudalism then you have to account for the areas where the Kethiran milieu has apparently been affected by other influences on the Kethiran psyche, surely?

If what you want is really 'Medieval Europe with Fantasy elements' why not take a look at Ars Magica? They start with historical medieval europe and add fantastic elements - which strikes me as an easier way to approach such an endeavour. If, on the other hand, the you just have an issue with the fragmented nature of the Kethiran "pantheon", since it is neither monotheistic religions in competition nor a coherent, connected pantheon, why not develop/impose a structure of relations on the Kethiran gods or develop a (set of) monotheistic religion(s) with a decidedly Kethiran bent*?

I don't want to get overly pessimistic, here, but given the nature of your problem I think I don't see that your proposed fix is going to give you satisfactory results. If it does, on the other hand, then I'll be glad to have been wrong!

*: Maybe have the current 'gods' converted to 'prophets' - or even 'first tribal leaders' - with a Concordat imposed upon them by God? Maybe 'Old Testament' analogue = Save-K'nor/Siem/Halea (prophets), 'New Testament' analogue = Larani (prophet or saviour, depending on religion)/Peoni (Mary analogue), 'Newest Testament/Koran' analogue = Agrik (prophet - maybe who transformed into a fire spirit?). Morgath is a 'Satan' analogue, Naveh a heretical (to everybody else!) prophet. Ilvir is the old heathen religion and Sarajin the foreign, semi-polytheistic religion of the Northmen. The Concordat stuff is in the 'Old Testament', together with other "God's laws" stuff about ethics and religious living. The slightly more nuanced philosophical ethics comes along in the 'New Testament' and a more 'individualistic' and 'realist' approach in the 'Newest Testament', maybe? The torturing, sadistic 'BBEG' Agrik I have long thought to be a heretical sect found on Hârn, in any case.

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Balesir
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- Eschew Obfuscation!

It's the quality that makes you you. In the Greek Orthodox thought ithe term/word is used to try and define the relationship between the divine Jesus and the human Jesus and how the they relate to each other to form one person. I guess the easiest way to put it is personhood.

Take care

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Fides quarens intellectum, Saint Anselm

Hey I finally moved up in the world of posts

Balesir is right. Ars Magica is a great place to start to import a version of Christianity! He's also right about he potential pitfalls being big. I'm just looking at it from an internal consistency point of view which can be a nightmare. As Balesir points out there are also the external politcal and sociological factors to consider too.

Also, what to do with Judiaism? No Judiaism no Christianity. Islam didn't really impact Christianity but Christianity did impact the development of Islamic theology.

I would add though that if the entire group agrees and can deal with some inconsistencies then just importing medieval terran religons whole sale might work. Start slowly by adding medieval Christianity a litte bit at a time and expand it from there.

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Fides quarens intellectum, Saint Anselm

Followers of Naveh could very well be religiously oriented assassins (a la Assassins' Creed), people who follow the will of God by eliminating dangerous or warlike members of society to bring "peace" into the world. Youtube has some scene captures from the game, sermonizing about the Creed and it's mission.

As for Haleans, Kushiels Dart by Jacqueline Carey might be an inspiration. It details a sect the Church called the Night Court. These men and women are followers of a woman who traveled with the Messiah, and when they ran out of money, she laid with men while he preached. Her "facilitation" of his preaching eventually led to her canonization. Historically, communes where Christians lived were places where love was freely offered (following the New Covenant: Love others as I have loved you), although most references to this were from Roman writers, whose culture may or may not have colored what they believed went on inside the communes.

My 2d.

Craig

In response to the questions about why Christianity:

First, I don't see the underpinnings of Lythian culture as particularly well tied to the world religion itself. We don't see things like mass conversions or holy wars making major historical events. In fact, one of the beauties of Harn is that apart from Harn, little history is really known. Sure we have the "timeline" from the Lythia book, but really, it's impact is little. As for the Concordant, I'm pretty sure my players wouldn't even miss it. In 15 years of Harnic campaigning, it's probably been mentioned once. As to the Pvaric Code: by nature it can be fitted into any campaign. It is a copy of the Hermetic Code of Ars Magica, which exists in a Christian world.

Secondly, many discussions have been had about Harnic religion. It is probably the one facet of pHarns most often changed. This is because (arguably) it is confusing. Replacing it with Christianity allows for the focus to be put on other aspects of a campaign. Understanding the relationship between Larani and Peoni or Save K'nor and Larani or Save K'nor and Agrik, or Morgath and Agrik is much more confusing than understanding the relationships between, for example, the Church and the Bogomiles, or the Cathars. For a world which prides itself on internal consistency, it is the one thing that (NOT A TROLL) feels like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk or some such. Hmm... don't understand the relationships? Just buff over that.

Third, there is some argument that development of religious sites within Harn are loosely (at least) premised on Christian facilities. Peonian hospitals, Laranian abbeys, Save Knoran libraries all have buildings which their Christian counterparts would have, probably with similar layouts.

Lastly, as to the question: if you want Christianity why don't you play Ars Magica? The same answer as to the question: if you want a detailed simulation of medieval England, why not Lionheart (or Ars Magica)? Because it's Harn. Many of our inspirations are premised on middle age Western Europe, but I'm not interested in the English Civil War, or the Hundred Years War. I want to know what happens with Miginath dies, or when Kronas recieves the backing of Senate to go to war or what the ultimate fate of Chybisa will be or how the Melderyni throne will handle the Crusade (ahem) against the Solori.

Christianity in a pHarn? No problem.

My 2d.

Craig

Thread Necromancy!!!



Although Apollyon is a mainstay of early christian literature!: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=apolly ... 20&bih=911

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

How about the idea that Christianity was imported from Terra?

Keep the texts exactly as they are...a religion from another world......with the harnic Dieties as Saints.......

I kind of like that idea.....

I am putting together a Harnic campaign - mainly because the maps are gorgeous and cartography has always been the main hold-up for me in running a game.

I like the idea of a monotheistic setting but Christianity, as such, is tied to Earth. Now if you want to re-write Harnic history so that humans came there from our earth and brought their religions with them, that could work out just fine.

Another approach is to create your own version of Harnic monotheism. Alderac Entertainment Group did a great job of this with their Church of the Prophets for 7th Sea. The religion is portable enough to other settings to be used in Harn.

In short, the religion teaches a Prophet came to the Senate of the Old Empire and preached the One, True God - Theus (simply Greek for "god"). He was killed for his pains. But his religion spread, his 9 companions preached to the four corners of the world. A second prophet arose some years later, claiming to be the successor of the 1st - He called for war against the infidel. Naturally this lead to 2 groups, one believing the other was the "infidel". Finally a third prophet arose, telling of a fourth prophet who would usher in a golden age.

This has lead to several religions:
1) the Orthodox - They only recognize the 1st Prophet. Why would Theus need others? 1 god, 1 prophet, 1 truth.

2) the Universalists - the main church, that accepts all three prophets and eagerly awaits the 4th. Lead by the Hierophant, they are the most powerful religious faction

3) the Faithful - followers of the 2nd Prophet, they reject the 3rd Prophet. They believe the final prophet will come when they have overcome the Infidel

4) the Objectionists - similar in many ways to the Universalists but they reject the authority of the Hierophant and the canon of the Curia. They hold strictly by the Words of the Prophets.

In addition their is the Old Faith - a polytheistic, quasi-druidic religion not to mention the religions of the non-human races.

Actually there is more to it than all this, AEG spent some time developing the Theology of these religions but you get the idea. While it isn't "Christian" per se', it allows one the same latitude as using real world religions without running the risk of offending players or trying to explain how Moses and Jesus ended up in your version of Harn.

Don't forget Aramaic.

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

None of the canon is written in Aramaic though some rabbinical commentaries are.