So with Robin's death has Harn and its effects passed wholly into public domain or does Kelestia (or CG... not) intend to enforce their copyright claims?

There is a an author out there who want's to use the derivative "Lythia" as his own product title. If Harn is now in the public domain is there any reason to think he can not?

Can Harnworld now be converted freely to electronic formats by the community and sold as a computerized reference, encyclopedia and map reference as has often been proposed?

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

My layman 2d:



So, no, Harn is not public domain, and will not be for another 50 or 70 years. Trademark is something you have to actively defend, and I think that is what is referred to above. Fanon destroyed the trademark.

Many of the Conan short stories by Robert E. Howard are now public domain as the copyright holders were not able to renew them. Wikipedia says the status is in question... possibly because of the Mickey Mouse Act in U.S. that extended some copyrights.

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Running: AD&D / When a star falls
Running: MERP / Woses of the black wood

I agree with Uthris, and I suspect that CGI will too. My (rather cynical) take on the dispute was that Tom would rather suggest that Harn was public domain than accept that Robin might be claim.

Neil

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Uxbridge English Dictionary:
Iconography: Filthy Byzantine pictures

Any suggestion that Hârn is public domain is ridiculous, and false.

Keléstia Productions continues to publish material under the authorisation of Robin's legal heirs.

Fanon has not undermined any Trademarks, or trademarkability, because Keléstia Productions has explicitly allowed fanon to be published.

Too many hedge lawyers running amok!

Jeremy Baker
Project Director, Keléstia Productions.

To be quite frank: Who cares? Virtually anything is conveniently available through certain electronic means already (which, as I personally discussed with Robin once, was clear to him and hence the KP bunch. They provide the stuff electronically - which means that nobody has to make the effort of scanning it and hence, the articles will be available through illegal channels much sooner and much more widespread). I suppose that's one of the reasons why CGI sticks to print publication.

Concerning the selling: Why should anybody bother? You can write an article and send it to a publisher (i.e. CGI or KP), and try to get paid for it. I mean, how many of those active here on the board are actually writing "canon"? So why bother trying to earn as little money as might be in Hârn-publications in a dubious manner?

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Steer me straight, O German one.
O flamer of mail, O Carver in Stone...

Spartan on HârnChat

Maybe, just maybe, Robin's heirs do care.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

True. maybe they care - maybe more than Robin did. Maybe CGI cares as well. But then, who are we to judge thatas long as we haven't heard anything from them. Or did you?

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Steer me straight, O German one.
O flamer of mail, O Carver in Stone...

Spartan on HârnChat

*I* care. And yes, Robin's heirs DO care.

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Ken Snellings
CHMP Member
Fredericksburg, Virginia, United States of America

....

So what about the CC2 Harnworld map project?

I'm not sure exactly what it entails but it wasn't done - due to copyright concerns, I think. (Something about scanning the maps yourself and entering it into the provided framework I think was once suggested).

Also electronic rights have been bargained around and it seemed someone had wanted to do something with this since the Auran peroid.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I was referring to Tom Dalgliesh's lament about public domain above and the registered trademark CGI had or applied for that is now effectively dead. And, well, some books claim that Harn is a trademark of CGI -- or was, as it seems.



A point taken. These things are far too complicated for lay people.

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Running: AD&D / When a star falls
Running: MERP / Woses of the black wood

What is disresepectful about that? I was merely stating that we didn't hear any statement from either official side and perhaps we should wait 'till we hear something from either side concerning how things continue after Robin's death. Sorry, I fail to see anything disrespectful about that.

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Steer me straight, O German one.
O flamer of mail, O Carver in Stone...

Spartan on HârnChat

(the above was quoted before Jeremy edited his post...)

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Steer me straight, O German one.
O flamer of mail, O Carver in Stone...

Spartan on HârnChat

Mabe I ought to clarify what I was intending to say:



What I meant is that people unwilling to pay for harnstuff can get the modules for free without any problems (torrent, emule,...) anyway. All that stuff is already converted to electronic format (scanned PDF, although perhaps not convenientlyy run through an OCR). I, too, could get the modules for free - but in a certain way, I do care as well. I don't download anything and rather buy those things that interest me.

Of course, I know that the legal aspect is quite a different matter - I was talking about the practical aspect, though, and on that level, the question is (to acertain degree) moot.

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Steer me straight, O German one.
O flamer of mail, O Carver in Stone...

Spartan on HârnChat

At a guess, I believe this certainly changes some things about the copyright state of Harn. I am not a lawyer but I do care about the honourable treatment of the game.

1. Robin's Estate receives his copyrights. They are now on a slow path (70 years?) into the public domain. Kelestia may be a corporation and may have received the copyrights already in which case I think the copyright duration might be 90 years. I am not a lawyer.

2. Columbia Games has always, to my understanding, maintained its right to the copyright based on a contract with Robin. Robin is no more so they have no claim that I can think of to the copyrights. Unless they are actively challenging Robin's copyright or have a contractual arrangement to use it upon his death I cannot see them with a legitimate title.

I think Columbia is in a hard position because the publishing model for Harn seems to include a lot of contributions without copyright, many of them paid for, or arranged, by Columbia. At the end of the day though I believe it has all been published as derivative works based on Robin's idea(s). Given their long term dispute with a dying author I do not believe they will have much authority to interpret Robin's wishes in the face of his Family's desires and the records of Robin's opinion on the matter.

When people are ready, I'd appreciate this settled for Harn's future and to help with Robin's memory. To my mind at least, Robin's estate is the center for Harn going forward. What they choose to do with the game is important to players but far less important than the sum total of the man and his memory.


We all must find an answer for ourselves. This is what I hold as correct and honourable. If I buy Harn I do so from Kelestia.


Sigurd

So what you are saying is that - far from making Harn public domain - Robin's death actually clears up the copyright issue. Columbia Games no longer has any legal claim to publish Harn!?!?

(Not that they actually made any payments as required by the contract they claimed to have before.)
(Or are they about to pay back payments and request a new contract with Robin's heirs?)

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

This is my logic - I am not a lawyer - there may be rights, records, understanding and contracts that prove me wrong.
I invite anyone with better qualifications or data to step forward.


Columbia has many times recognized Robin as the author of Harn. An author's copyright is automatic.
Columbia has maintained that they were licensed by Robin according to a contract that was under dispute. They have claimed that Robin could not end the contract without submitting to arbitration.
Since Robin has passed away who do they have a contract with to give them license to the copyright?
Can they maintain that a dead man must submit to arbitration?
Do they have a letter or written license from Robin? Robin certainly didn't think so.

You hold a copyright or you don't. Robin was the recognized author that is the family's authority. Where is Columbia's authority now?

While the question is valid, this thead is in danger of becoming a nasty flame war. Long ago I asked if we could hear from actual lawyers on this question. I have since heard nothing from any lawyer. Maybe it would be best if this thread were closed down. It serves no good.

Anborn

What he said.

Also, I don't wish to hear from actual lawyers either unless they have actual facts on which to base their opinions.

Which is why we haven't heard from any lawyers in the last six years - anyone on the forum who is a lawyer would be aware of their lack of facts, and the malpractice involved in giving such an opinion.

I second the call that this thread is flamebait and ask it be closed.

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The Melderyn Campaign

It has been stated that Harn material is available for free thru illegal internet sources and that only the desire of people to buy from legal sources prevents them from downloading it.

But discussing what legal sources are available is "flamebait"?

Why?

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

When you have a six year old daughter yelling at you, for help with her home work, it's hard to be clear. So let me be more clear. When I say lawyers I mean lawyers from Columbia Games and Kelestia Productions. Yes, good and valid questions are being asked on this forum. But if you are not a lawyer speaking for CG or KP how can you answer said questions? All else is the risk of flamebait.

Anborn

I, like everyone here, am a devoted fan of the Harn franchise. It has afforded me years of enjoyment and memories of great fellowship shared with my friends. Harn has a healthy life as a pastime we all enjoy. Its legal/fiduciary existence is truthfully not in our hands and will be addressed as needed by the concerned parties within their time frame according to their needs. I would strongly advocate for its health and continuance and would earnestly resist any action that endangered its vitality and expansion as a game system/environment. I also am frustrated by the powerlessness I feel when I consider the dispute over copyright and the manifest concerns that at some point the dispute could jeopardize this great product.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but was there not an old and outstanding question raised by parties of weather or not Robin had "adopted" a substantial amount of his original Harn text from an obscure, out of print history of England. This query having been raised as what appeared to have been a concern/challenge with regards to his own rights to Harn as original rather than as derivative of another work?

If this is the case then the whole discussion is significantly complicated beyond any reasonable hope to reconcile here.

We all know this is an old dispute. We are voicing concerns in a public forum where the respective staffs of CG and KP as well as Robin's family can follow the discussion. In doing so, I submit that all they will derive is a vague sense of community opinion and we on the forum will do little more than voice (vent) our semi-informed legal points of view and risk clouding the collegial atmosphere.

Dear CG, KP and dearest members of the Crossby family, thank you for the roles you have played in supporting Robin and the game product he dedicated himself to. I believe that all the members of this forum have derived as much enjoyment from this system as I have. As well, in their voices, I hear echoed some of my own anxieties about the future vitality of Harn. I don't want the music to stop playing. But I know that there are challenges in playing a melody with too many in the lead. I wish you well in seeking any outcomes you each feel you need to. I would miss the music if it can't continue. It means a lot to me.

Joe

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Joseph R. Monarski
Wisconsin - Birthplace of the RPG

If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal.
-- Carl Sagan

As I am not a lawyer, I won't claim myself the right to say anything about who should have copyright and who shouldn't.

But it does look like some sort of unofficial agreement took place.
Columbia Games only produces material for their edition of the HârnMaster ruleset, and HârnWorld material for the island of Hârn.
Kelestia Productions produces HârnMaster Gold material, and HârnWorld material for any place not on the island of Hârn.

Columbia Games offers - at least for me - a big advantage. They get their stuff printed and into the shops.
As I personaly prefer to have printed material rather than PDFs on my computer (even though I do have a laptop I could use at the gaming table), Columbia Games is the deal for me if I have to decide.
And I stress again that this is not a dicision made out of some moral or something. N.Robin Crossby did some great work, and it's a shame that things went like they did. But as I don't know the complete background from both sides, I don't claim the right to make any convictions here.

Kelestia Productions has some disadvantages, when it comes to my personal preferences.
- They don't sell printed products I could find in a shop.
- HârnMaster Gold is not my prefered rule system.
- I am not a fan of texts overburdened with accents.
- I am not a fan of texts overburdened with invented words.
- I am not a fan of the layout, especially of older products. I mean the illustrations (or worse, photoshop'd photos) and fonts. Ledenheim on the other hand looks great regarding the illustrations.


So out of practical (and maybe selfish looking) reasons, it is Columbia Games who offer the best deal for me.
If Kelestia Productions would change the aspects I personally dislike, they surely would offer the deal for me as well.

Regarding the material output, I do like the new material for Hârn that comes from Columbia Games - and I am really looking forward to more from Kelestia Productions. Azeryan was always one of the modules I've been waiting for. Maybe I will see it seeing the light of day soon - who knows.

So if there is no agreement that can be reached - as there wasn't in the past - maybe the comunity of Hârn fans is best served with the status quo? (or maybe with an improving KP). CG has only a small island to publish material for - KP has a whole world!


Apart from my preference for printed material, there is another point:
I don't like buying over the internet. I am old-school.
I don't have a credit card, and I am not registered with paypal or something.
Maybe for security reasons, maybe I am conservative.
If I buy something online, I ask a friend to do it for me. (I think the guys from KP know that I am not registered with them.)

Is there no chance at all to get KP material printed and into the shops?
Maybe in cooperation with another publisher?


I would have loved to see N.R.Crossby and Columbia Games "reunited".
But maybe the rift between them was already to big, to wide to jump across it.
One of the reasons why it all began I could imagine is Robins preference for accents, invented words, his rule system (which is more complex), his new cartography, and maybe some other stuff.
Some (or all) of these changes CG certainly wouldn't have (for some of them I am really thankfull), and Robin propably was really stubborn about them.
When opinions clash, even best friends can find a rift growing between them. I think we all experienced this once or twice.
The good thing about best friends is, that you normally can overcome these rifts.
CG and Robin propaply never were best friends. They did buisness together. That's all.
And in buisness, disagreements don't always end with a handshake, a beer, and a laugh together.
They end a bit different - as we have seen.

With the polls started on this Forum - about accents and invented words - I have some hope that KP material might change a bit.
But then again - should they really do it? Would they change something Robin was really stubborn about?
And if they would, why?
For the sake of more selling products?
For the greater good of the Hârn comunity?
Are these reasons good enough to ignore Robins wishes?

And if they are (and I am being a bit provocative here and I know it), why couldn't be CG the publisher for KP, with proper contracts to ensure KP gets their works worth of money? Who apart from CG would put a product like HârnWorld in print, knowing that there is a legal disagreement?

I know, some may find my questions provocative. (But I certainly don't want to be the troublemaker.)
But on the other hand, it wasn't long after Robins death when questions/polls about his beloved accents and invented words where raised...


Regards,

Timo

OK, I think we've had enough discussion for now. Any more may well descend into a name calling exercise. Move on to happier subjects, please.

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