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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:30 am 
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Half Villein
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Hi,

I am thinking about using Savage Worlds with Hârn. I saw in some older posts, that there are people who are already doing this. I just wanted to ask if there are any special hints, lessons learned etc. you could share for going that route?

Many thanks and all the best,

Alex


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:10 am 
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Knight
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Leitchy ran or participated in a Savage Harn game.

Having run a few Savage Worlds games in universes originally intend for other systems, my only advice would be to keep it simple.

Savage Worlds is going to be a little more action oriented than type HarnMaster games, which is a nice change of pace if you ask me. However, some have said that Savage Worlds PCs are too durable. One way to fix that, is to disallow spending bennies for soak rolls.

Don't get hung up on porting Pvarism. Have an edge for each slice of the pvaric wheel, and let players apply trappings suitable to that edge to their existing powers. Don't balk to quickly regarding how certain spells can or cannot fit in a convocation. Let the players do the work, and sit back and approve it. (This is more in keeping with the source material anyway)

eg:

Bolt
Lyavhi - A laser beam
Peleahn - Heat ray, or fire bolt
Jmorvi - A spray of metal shards
Fyvria - Barbs from nearby trees fly toward the target
Odivshe - a frost bolt [reduces targets pace by 1" for 1 round]
Savorya - A mental blast or a litany designed to collapse the target's psyche. [does fatigue damage, not lethal damage]

Dont, ever, add more skills. Keep the profession table if you like, but use it for character background and Common Knowledge rolls for the character.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:45 am 
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Half Villein
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Hi Harshax,

thanks for the advice! I do not mind the "more action" as its definitely easier to get people to play Hârn when you tell them its played with Savage Worlds. Also I do not mind at all, that it is a lot easier for me to GM :-)

Many thanks and kind regards,

Alex


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:40 pm 
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Nightflight, Harshax's advice is sound. :)

I've run and played in a number of SW games set in HârnWorld, and they have all been immense fun. I've experimented with adapting Hârn magic and Hârn wounding, and Hârn grittiness...and eventually gone back to keeping things simple. Use the Savage Worlds Explorer rules, they are by far the best.

The biggest issue I've found is of the heroes becoming too big for the setting too quickly. So my advice is to limit the XP you grant to 1 or 2 per session (3 for special occasions), and you'll extend the life of your campaign by a large margin. It will also make leveling up a big deal for the players. But don't expect the campaign to last forever. There will come a time when the heroes are not really challenged by anything...including standing armies! :) Then it'll be time to draw it to a close and move on to a new game.

:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:03 am 
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I have been looking for the 'right' system to run a harn game with for quite a long while now, and have started looking into Savage Worlds. While it is not perfect in many ways, it sure seems to fit the bill for what I am looking for. (Easy to run, and more important, easy to use in an online enviorment.) I have seen a few folks mention using SW, and was wondering if the was any documentation available for a SW/Harn game? I am going to delve into it myself, but if there's anything out there to get me started that would be great.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Knight
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I don't think there is any document out there. It occurred to me today how to translate HarnMaster quality to Savage Worlds skills:

Code:
*        d6
**       d8
***      d10
****     d12
*****    d12+2

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:03 am 
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Villein
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Harshax wrote:
I don't think there is any document out there. It occurred to me today how to translate HarnMaster quality to Savage Worlds skills:

Code:
*        d6
**       d8
***      d10
****     d12
*****    d12+2


Hmm, I'm used to HM3. Do you mean like quality of goods or the overall quality of a hireling if you were to evaluate their skill-level?

A carpenter's helper might have d4, an apprentice d6, a Journeyman d8, a master d10 and a grandmaster craftsman would have d12 ... they could then work on Expert levels which could take them to d12+1 or even d12+2.

So:
Code:
*        d4
**       d6
***      d8
****     d10
*****    d12+

Might be better? D4 is basic skill/understanding, D6 is competent, D8 is skilled, D10 is very-skilled and d12 is masterful. Going beyond d12 is extremely rare.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:43 am 
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I would recommend a different scale. One star means the skills of the person are quite poor; almost unskilled perhaps. So perhaps you might be better served starting with one star at d4-2, then two stars would be d4 (some skill but still pretty ordinary), three stars (which is supposed to be average skill in HarnWorld) being d6 (which is supposed to be average skill level in SW), and so on.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:06 pm 
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Villein
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Well d4 skill means you would only succeed at a skill test 25% of the time. Seems about right for *. Keep in mind that 1d4-2 is unskilled, meaning they haven't a clue.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Let's get to the real issue; Savage Worlds don't include any rules for crafting or building, so we're inventing a house rule here. You can do whatever you like in your game, of course. My take on the issue is simply that three stars in Harn means an average skilled craftsman, and a d6 in Savage Worlds rules means an average skill...for a human. Everything else stems from there. To ensure that a house rule maintains some consistency, I always try to examine the boundary conditions; in this case the lower end is more important than the high end. If the boundary conditions present a reasonable outcome, then the house rule is internally consistent and therefore usable, otherwise more work or a rethink is needed.

Remember the guideline on skills in Savage Worlds; no chance of succeeding (ie, brain surgery or something equally complicated) means the hero doesn't get a roll at all. If there is any chance of success, but the character has never been exposed to formal training, then the unskilled roll (which is given as d4-2 ... for those unfamiliar with Savage Worlds, read this as "d4 plus a penalty for being unskilled of -2") is allowed. With crafts, much of it is common sense; experience builds professionalism and quality, but an unskilled person with a reasonable grasp of the way the world works, or some informal exposure to the skill, has a chance to craft most mundane things.

I don't interpret "unskilled" the same way you do. You equated "unskilled" to "haven't a clue", and reading between the lines, I interpret your "haven't a clue" as meaning "no chance". I may be drawing a long bow here, but I think that means you equate "unskilled" to mean "no chance" of success, and I don't think that's correct because it's not supported by the math (see below).

To me "unskilled" means the character has no formal training, but they are adept enough to perhaps be able to pull off a success...if they are lucky. That would equate to the handyman, or the craft labourer. In Hârn, one star means "Poor" quality. I figure a success rate of roughly 19% — see how I came to this conclusion below — equates to a poor craftsman; over 80% of the jobs he does are "failures". There's really not that much difference between an unskilled person and one with d4 in the skill.

You have to remember that in Savage Worlds, a success means "the activity was performed adequately; it achieved the stated aim". It wasn't a marvellous success, not outstanding, just OK. Equally, not rolling a success doesn't always mean a complete and utter failure. For crafting, it might mean simply that the item has a flaw or two, but is still usable. So the chair might be rickety and have uneven legs, but you can still sit on it. The flour is coarsely ground and has hulls in it, but it can still be used to bake bread, which might be tough — even unpleasant — to eat, but it would feed a family.

In other words, the quality is poorer than a success would have generated, but the end product is still usable in some small measure.

And now to a bit of technical analysis:

Code:
Using my logic of equating a d6 to 3 stars:

      * = d4-2 or 18.75%* (1:5.33)
     ** = d4 or 25% (1 in 4, or 1:4)
    *** = d6 or 50% (3 in 6, or 1:2)
   **** = d8 or 62.5% (5 in 8, or 1:1.6)
  ***** = d10 or 70% (7 in 10, or 1:1.43)

For completeness: d12 = 75% (9 in 12 or 1:1.33), d12+2 = 92% (11 in 12 or 1:1.09)

The biggest jumps are from a skill of d4 to one of d6 (a 25% jump, or double the chance of a success), and from d12 to d12+2 (a jump of 17%)


* This is primarily for those that don't know how Savage Worlds works; there are two concepts you must know. Firstly, a success is an end result of 4 or better, regardless of die type rolled, and after any bonuses and/or penalties have been applied. The second concept is that if you roll the maximum number on a die (known as "aceing" the roll; that is, a result of 4 on a d4, or 6 on a d6, etc.) then you get to roll the die again and add the results of both rolls. So, in order to generate a success when the skill level is d4-2, the first roll must be an ace (a result of 4) so the player can roll the d4 again. The second result must be a 2 or higher, meaning the end result is at least 6. This is because the penalty of 2 is now subtracted from the result, to end up with a 4; a success.

There is a 1 in 4 chance of rolling a 4 on a d4, so a 25% chance (or .25). There is a 75% chance of rolling a 2 or higher on a d4, so .75.
.25 * .75 = .1875 or ~19%

I'm happy to be corrected by any Math majors out there, but I'm reasonable confident I have that right.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:06 am 
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Villein
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Well, it's not a house rule. I'm a little surprised by your comment to be honest.

Clint Black the Brand Manager of Savage Worlds has stated that crafting is covered with the Repair skill as in: repair, building and maintaining 'stuff'. Crafting is thus a component of Repair.

As the game is streamlined they don't draw a line between being able to make something and being able to fix it. Having a speciality for every different kind of 'thing' to be fixed/crafted is contrary to the Fast! Furious! Fun! methodology of Savage Worlds so they don't distinguish.

The usual target number or TN for Savage Worlds is 4. Anyone can attempt to repair a quarterstaff as an example at d4-2. Untrained means that unless they have an example to work from or it isn't plainly intuitive leap to make like a club or something, it cannot be attempted. If they are trying to repair a damaged shield they can make a test. If they've never seen a shield and is described to them they could try to make one but at 1d4-2 thus failing (by your math) 81% of the time. If you have no Heal skill and thus d4-2 and someone has a bullet lodged in their head and no medical care available you could attempt a roll to pull it out ... but good luck. If you're trying to accomplish deep brain stimulation with a neurosurgeon's magnifying goggles with orthoscopic tools ... I'd say that was literally impossible without training. So I can see that not having skill means you just can't do certain things.

It just seems odd to rate someone who literally has no clue (having 1d4-2) as one * when the d4 seems a better match to one * in skill. The D4 skilled craftsman may be incompetent compaired to a Journeyman, but they aren't going to fail 81% of the time.

D4 in a skill could be interpreted that they have some training and although lacking in skill have at least a base of knowledge to work with. A GM could say that any basic weapons or armour could be built/repaired/worked on by someone with traning. Their success-rate isn't too much better but at least they have a clue. With higher levels of skill a GM could interpret it that they have a corresponding broader scope of knowledge. A guy comes into a smith's shop and asks for an exotic sword rarely seen in Harn. The smith rolls their Repair skill and rolls a 4 and the GM okays the smith to make it without an example.

D4 are successful 25% of the time.
D6 are successful 50% of the time.
D8 are successful 62.5% of the time.
D10 are successful 70% of the time.
d12 are successful 75% of the time.

With expert it gets even better:

d12+1 succeeding 83.3% of the time, means you only fail on a roll of 1 or 2 on d12.
d12+2 succeeding 91.6% so unless you roll a 1 you're good.

If you wanted something more specific the GM could create a Knowledge Skill to cover specific knowledge of a type of craft as a speciality but again is not normally necessary in Savage Worlds.

I guess the only way to settle this is to make a subjective comparison of Skill ratings based on how often they would succeed at a mundane skill check and then match that up.

So if one * should have some basis of knowledge than D4 is appropriate. If one * is totally untrained with no basis of knowledge then so be it.

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