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 Post subject: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:31 am 
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Sheriff
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Well, the number cruncher in me is happy there might be some real way a carnivorous pack of gargun of 1000 or so could live withuot competely destroying the ecology of the area.

And to not sidetrack the "Gargun Behavior" thread, I started a new one.

Found an article of "organic pig raising". Looks as though pigs can live off a small forested area for a long period of time, actually making the soil very rich.

I'd think the pigs would be kept in one "field" or area for a while (a good year), move on to a new one, and cycle through some fields this way, by the time they got back to original field in a few years it would be lush with vegetation.

I'd also think a swarm of pigs and a handful of gargun would quickly drive away the natural denizens of the area, so other wildlife would be rather scarce in the immediate area.

It looks as though a Pig could feed a gargun for 45 days or so if strictly eating the pig for sustenance.

I thik pigs make the most sense for gargun - the don't need meadow or good grazing area - woodlands are absolutely fine for them.

I could see goats as well, they seem to be easy to provide forage for:

Quote:
Goats are reputed to be willing to eat almost anything, including tin cans and cardboard boxes. While goats will not actually eat inedible material, they are browsing animals, not grazers like cattle and sheep, and (coupled with their natural curiosity) will chew on and taste just about anything resembling plant matter in order to decide whether it is good to eat, including cardboard and paper labels from tin cans.[18] Another possibility is that the goats are curious about the unusual smells of leftover food in discarded cans or boxes.

A domestic goat feeding in a field of capeweed, a weed which is toxic to most stock animalsAside from sampling many things, goats are quite particular in what they actually consume, preferring to browse on the tips of woody shrubs and trees, as well as the occasional broad-leaved plant. However, it can fairly be said that their plant diet is extremely varied, and includes some species which are otherwise toxic.[19] They will seldom consume soiled food or contaminated water unless facing starvation. This is one reason goat rearing is most often free ranging, since stall-fed goat rearing involves extensive upkeep and is seldom commercially viable.


A mixture of goats and pigs would work well IMO for Gargun, they produce more young than cows.

Goats also provide milk, more goats milk is consumed in the world than cows milk. For Gargun, this gives them a somewhat renewable source of food.

Only problem with goats is that they are diurnal, not nocturnal, so herding goats is something the gargun may not be the best at, most likley this job falls to the Arak if part of a hybrid gagrgun complex.

A modern goat though produces about 4 cups of milk a day. If we make production less for a middle ages gargun goat may 2 cups, the goats are producing about 320 calories a day, lactating abut 300 days per year, so if you have 100 goats they provide sustenenance by milk for about 4800 "gargun days", or enough to fully feed 13 gargun for a year.

Add these animal to hunting and you have a pretty good food supply for the gargun.

One thought - A gargun population of 1000 would need to slaughter about 8000 pigs/goats per year if existing strictly on the meat of these animals. A herd of 2000 female goats would provide milk for about 30% of the caloric needs of a complex of 1000 gargun.

If you have Hunters providing 35% of the needed food as per Mr. Watson's article, you know have provided for 65% of the needs of the complex, so they would need to slaughter about 2800 pigs or goats a year.

Not sure how much of a herd you need to slaughter this many and keep the population steady, I'd guess at least double? Or about 5600 animals?

One thought I have here - the Gargun would likley drive the pigs out at night, bring them back to pens out of the sun during the day, ot at least where the watchers would be out of the sun, very close to the cave complex.

I would think the pens might be like the modern mass produced pig farms. I read that a pig gets about a 6 square foot pen in some of these, so a 60' by 100' roughly pen area could hold 1000 pigs.

Gargun might be the inventors of modern industrial farming :D

I could also see the gargun having the constitution to eat spoiled meat with little ill effect - may not taste great to them, but they can eat it without a problem. Makes those nasty little buggers more gargun like to me :)

Another thought - Mac's "gargun beer" would be a major production if giving the gargun 4 cups of it a day on average. Daily consumption of a lair of 1000 would need to produce 250 gallons of this stuff a day to meet those requirements.

I almost see the interior of a gargun lair like the interior of a pirate ship - with the sailors drinking their rum or grog in their spare time.....maybe that's why gargun ML's are kind of low - they are always drunk :D

I think it might be of interest though to come up with something along the lines of Harn manor for the requirements in labor and kind to sustain a gargun population in this manner.

The one big difference I see between a gargun complex and a human village - very high centralized concentration of gargun and their foodstuffs compared to humans. The livestock, even with the low acreage requirements of pigs and sheep would probably need 1000 acres+ to forage, and with a "rotational system" because of the pigs destruction of the habitat (though they make it a great area for new plant growth), you are probably looking at a few thousand acres around a gargun lair at various stages of deforestation and regrowth.

I would think the approach to a gargun lair though if designed like this would be interesting. You get to the "pastureland" areas, in the day no pigs out, but some gargun goat herders, with pig plowed fields in various stages, then well before you get to the lair you smell the pig pens, with a huge amount of pigs in a small area, the manure and other gasses almost giving it a toxic smell.

Sounds good for gargun!

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:01 am 
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Of course that above mentioned gargun lair of 1000 would still need to kill about 8 deer per day, or the equivalnet of, to provide enough food for the lair, or about 2900 deer or their equivalents in a year.

My guess is the complex will run OK until the area become over hunted, then food shortages will set in, cannibalization will happen, and then the pressure on the complex will require either a swarm or some intense internal bloodshed to reduce the population to a more manageable level.

BTW - In Iviniathran, if there is a kind shortage, this is generally made up by reducing or eliminating tribute to their superior.

In a "Gargun Manor", shortages in kind are made up for probably by cannibalization :D

Somone mentioned eariler rules for hunting if fauna is plentiful, sparse or in between. Are these some formal canon or fanon rules for this? If so, where can they be found?

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:33 am 
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BTW, in comparing to humans, any idea what the support of a gargun would cost in "kind"?

Kind of different, as it's not a household, but an individual. I would guess a queen might require more kind?

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:42 am 
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Gargun might be the inventors of modern industrial farming


A certain Mr Tolkein portrayed Orcs and their masters as poster boys for the evils of mechanisiation and mass production.....so you are in esteemed company there. :)

NB From the maps a lot of the areas look hilly to say the least...Goats would be an excellent choice.

Also; wild pigs are incredibly dangerous themselves...making the approach to a lair EVEN more interesting. (And also a favoured quarry of the nobility.... :-k )

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:51 am 
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Quote:
BTW, in comparing to humans, any idea what the support of a gargun would cost in "kind"?


No.

Quote:
Somone mentioned eariler rules for hunting if fauna is plentiful, sparse or in between. Are these some formal canon or fanon rules for this? If so, where can they be found?


In HM Barbarians I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:57 am 
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In Harnmanor there is an implication that any excess in production is never really 'saved' by the Lord....but spent on status/political expenses in many ways. I wonder if and how this rule applies to a gargun Lord? And also do not forget that most will have no feudal overlords to pay.

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:59 am 
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A certain Mr Tolkein portrayed Orcs and their masters as poster boys for the evils of mechanisiation and mass production.....so you are in esteemed company there.


Kind of my inspiration for that actually :D

Quote:
Also; wild pigs are incredibly dangerous themselves...making the approach to a lair EVEN more interesting. (And also a favoured quarry of the nobility.... )


Yeah, I'm trying to think if pigs as feudal folks use make more sense. Wild pigs are not technically domesticated, the question is if the gargun have domesticated and bred these or not.

Also - I know harnmanor is more to determine the wealth a landholder derives from his holdings - but I like to microcosm it to determine the economics of a settlement, gargun or human.

A thrall household is 1500d - I'd think a Gargun by itself might run in the 400 range or so?

But one problem I have with Harnmanor (Specifically Iviniathran, but this was a direct copy of Harnmanor pretty much) Is a thrall household takes 1500d (I like the old EH Harnmanor's use of Kind better) to support per year. The labor rate is 1d per day, and a huosehold can supply 500 man day's of labor per year.

This means "hired general farm labor" operates at a negative 1000k or d for the year, which makes little sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:02 am 
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Sheriff
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In Harnmanor there is an implication that any excess in production is never really 'saved' by the Lord....but spent on status/political expenses in many ways. I wonder if and how this rule applies to a gargun Lord? And also do not forget that most will have no feudal overlords to pay.


Very good points. I'd think a gargun king would "spend" his excess, but on what I am not sure. There might be a lot more waste also by gargun perhaps? By waste I mean pilfering.

One thing though - in comparison to most human cultures, I think gargun in a complex would be very metal "rich".

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:02 am 
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The gargun would also supplement their meals with fallen foe and their own infirm or slow. Perhaps a lot of their young get eaten - those who manage to evade the pot are the tough ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:51 pm 
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The Gargun seem to me to live a very Malthusian life: food supply always on the edge. I suspect that the King or Queen have some way of somewhat regulating the frequency and size of the egg-laying. It may be unconscious, or purely hormonal, or it might be a concious decision. That is, if they believe that there is not going to be enough food, they might have fewer batches of eggs, and fewer eggs in them. This would require a certain discipline, of course. Any bad weather or animal plagues (swine-fever) would be a likely cause of swarming or civil war within the nest.
In the unlikely event of a sudden surplus of food, there would be parties, no laying away for a rainy day, just a lack of cannabalism.

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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:15 am 
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I like my gargun to constantly fight each other for resources, eat each other, and swarm, so I decided the queen lays eggs at a constant rate. The king makes sure they have plenty to eat, so it's not a problem for them. When times are rough, more younger may get eaten by the rest of the group. When times are good, more live, which eventually leads to a swarm or warfare when the next food shortage arises. It's all about maximizing the aggression - short-term goals ruled their development, and long-term planning is unknown to them.

If you want gargun to have been designed with long-term stability, have the number of eggs laid by a queen be related to the amount of food she gets. More natural, and less designed this way.


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 Post subject: Re: Garagun "Manor"
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:49 am 
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Quote:
The gargun would also supplement their meals with fallen foe and their own infirm or slow. Perhaps a lot of their young get eaten - those who manage to evade the pot are the tough ones.


Fallen foe would supplement for certain, but not a huge amount I would not think, though it would be interesting to run the numbers.

Of course, if the gargun have fatal casualties in a skirmish, but hold the field, their own comrades would also be thrown in the stew pot I would think.

Quote:
The Gargun seem to me to live a very Malthusian life: food supply always on the edge. I suspect that the King or Queen have some way of somewhat regulating the frequency and size of the egg-laying. It may be unconscious, or purely hormonal, or it might be a concious decision. That is, if they believe that there is not going to be enough food, they might have fewer batches of eggs, and fewer eggs in them. This would require a certain discipline, of course. Any bad weather or animal plagues (swine-fever) would be a likely cause of swarming or civil war within the nest.


Interesting thought on the egg laying frequency.

I would think livestock issues causing famine though would not be extremely uncommon - based on the fact that gargun "animal husbandry" would have to be very centralized compared to a feudal econmies pastoralism. An animal plague could be a not to uncommon event thaqt would quickly cause severe problems for their food supply.

What would be the response to a animal plague that wipes out a good percentage of the animal population? One question is, can gargun eat ""bad" meat"? Personally, I like the idea of gargun being able to meat that other races could not even stomach smelling, like carrion eating animals such as Hyenas. To me, Gargun are the hyenas of the humanoid races.

So initially, it would be a food boon, but any King would know they would have to replentish stocks ASAP, and this could be done through raiding other gargun colonies (the easiest choice), barbarians that practice pastoralism, and even in desperate times raiding human settlements. Humans or other gargun can be a short term food supply, but for any long term survival they have to be able to capture and bring back live animals, and a lot of them.

Of course, should this prove less than sucessful, it would likely lead to increased cannibalism, civil war, and/or a swarm.

The other thought with gargun eating their young - actually, this is a great form of population control as well as a source of nutrition. This fits the gargun well IMO.

Quote:
In the unlikely event of a sudden surplus of food, there would be parties, no laying away for a rainy day, just a lack of cannabalism.


Personally, I do see the gargun having some parties with a surplus of food, but by the same token I do not see them entirely not saving any food for a rainy day. Maybe the King is in charge of putting away the stored dried meat (not nearly as appetizing to gargun as fresh meat, but still a food they will more than willingly eat). Maybe this stored meat, the access to it and struggles over it are one of the factors that cause a lot of internal blood letting.

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