So... opinions please. Would a kid from Kaldor be squired to a knight in Melderyn? What determines who a squire's knight (usually) is? Is it usually straight up the chain of command (so to speak), or do say baron train each other's kids without worrying about pecking order?

Welcome to the Harn forum Silariel.
I would say that the higher up the pecking order you could place your kids the better, having your child squire for the King would gain you more status than having them squire for a minor Lord. I imagine much politicking would be involved to try and get them as high up as possible. I also image one of the first questions from the person taking the squire would be "What's in it for me?"
Remember also that taking someone's son on as a squire can be a polite way of grabbing a hostage.

Scott

Hi,
My first question would be who are the child's parents...if they were not noble or extremely rich, I would find unlikely that he would be squired at all.
Caldeth

Squiring can be view as a way of making alliances. A noble higher up in the pecking order would try secure the loyalty of important vassals by squiring their son. The same goes sideways. Two neighbouring knights might have common interest even if they have different lords. Squiring could also be used for strenghtening family bonds between distant relatives.

I would find it unlikely that the son of a Kaldorian noble should get his education as a knight in Melderyn unless the father has a personal friend in that country or want's to remove his son from harms way. Squring, like marriage is a way of improving your familys standing. You wouldn't expect much to come out of a connection to far away Melderyn.

I think the upper eschelons of Kaldoric nobility would have connections with the Melderyni court; and that most certainly families with sons in the fighting orders would would have connections with each other; so some in the lower eschelons might too.

Harn as presented imho is a bit more insular as regards it's nations and nobility than terra...I think in medieval times squiring a knights child to a foreign Baron would be seen more opportunisticly than on Harn.

So yes possible; but also comparitively unlikely

I am trying to think if their are any examples of this in Canon

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

If memory serves, the notion of squiring sons to foreign nobles was basically a form of hostage-giving to ensure peace between the two nations in question, and not so much for the direct safety of your own kids, unless the foreign power was a proven ally, and your own nation was under direct threat from within - usually due to religious or royal abuse of power.

In Harn, I would see Kanday and Melderyn exchanging squires in this way. I would see Chybisa and Melderyn doing the same, since Melderyn retains claim on Chybisa; although I could also see Chybisa trying to do likewise with Kaldor, to appease the other side that also claims their territory.

I do not see Kaldor and Melderyn doing anything of this kind of arrangement due to conflicts outstanding over the territory of Chybisa. Exchanging squires in this case would be viewed as a little too risky, unless second or later sons (the "expendable" ones that won't inherit anyway, and so are really rather useless as hostages depending on the status of their parents; kids of barons or better are still valuable pawns).

I see nobody in their right mind doing cross-border squiring with Rethem, at least not voluntarily. And Tharda would be viewed as being so odd in its government and military ways that it would be pointless to try to arrange anything of this sort with them... likewise for Orbaal...

Just a few thoughts... do with them as you will...

Thanks for the opinions! I just wanted to make sure it wasn't too unlikely or even totally against some obscure feudal rule.

My proposed character is the bastard son of Maldan Harabor (making him a double bastard ), so he's expendable. In fact, Mirald and his mother would like to expend him. So Maldan is using Harabor trading connections to squire him to a knight who's in debt to some Harabor relatives there. In my pHarn, the Harabors are wealthy, powerful guildsmen, not the Harnic equivalent of the family that runs the corner store. BTW, how much do we know about the Harabors in cannon/fannon?

I would say that Maldan is being uncharacteristically generous with this bastard kid of his - to ensure this one has a relatively good life... let alone the fact that you are having him go through connections to his family that are indebted to him, presumably in relief of such debt.

Personally I would suggest the reverse... send his kid off as squire in order to indebt the connection under pretense of "what will happen when I am crowned"... If sent to Chybisa, btw, with this pretense, it could well grant Maldan quite a force of mercenaries to help him when the succession negotiations fail and call to arms is raised. (Melderyn would be a bit too far to be of use, UNLESS Maldan had need of something that normally doesn't clear the normal filter called the Alienage in Cherafir, and securing this connection will get him the item(s) he needs....)

Again, just my opinion...

I wonder if the King of Kaldor might have an issue with *any* knight of Kaldor effectively giving a hostage to Melderyn. The two countries both claim Chybisa etc.

Maldan is a Sheriff in Kaldor and a bastard son of the King looking for the King's favor. One way for the king to clear up a potential conflict of interest would be to fire his compromised Sheriff which he can do at any time.

If Maldan was looking to become the future King of Kaldor giving his son to Melderyn would just about guarantee that will never happen - unless by military force with Melderyn as his backer. It make it look like Maldan is making alliances with Melderyn behind the king's back (which he sort of would be).

At least that's how it seems to me. I can't think of any way this move would help Maldan's claim to the throne. Even if the King wanted ties to Melderyn this would not seem to be a likely method as it is meaningless unless Maldan is recognized and insane if he is recognized.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

The only thing - from Silariel's proposal he is not giving his son to Melderyn, but to a knight of Melderyn. Unless this knight is more infuential than his status indicates, aquiring to a Melderyni Knight means little. Squiring him to a Melderyni Earl, a relative of one of the greater houses, or even to a knight with "connections" could be a different thing.

If the knight is not "connected", about all Maldan is gaining perhaps is some contacts for perhaps a mercenary connection, which is minor but could prove to be of a bit of help in the possible upcoming war of sucession.

I think it was not uncommon to squire a son with a knight of another country - but I think you would see this more among higher ranking nobility. On Terra at least, it was a common for both to give a "hostage" as Varlenn messages, but also as a rapport building tactic.

If on Harn this is against their mores, it might be looked at suspiciously - but on Terra IMO it would not be considered suspicious, unless perhaps with a heated rival. And I don't even know if Melderyn would truly be considered a heated rival. Now perchance if Tormau had a son squired with an Earl of Kanday it would be suspicious - but Tormau is already viewed as suspicious.

I think it might be more interesting for Maldan to squire his son with a higher ranking Maelderyni knight. Perhaps even starting up a conversation with the crown that If Maldan were to become King, any thoughts of Chysbia as a vassal to the Kaldoric crown would be put to rest.

And One thing to think about as well - it appears Harn has many batchelor knights without formal employment - per battlelust, some of these are available for a feudal muster (though I would think they would have to be paid as mercenaries, not serving at least a portion of their time for free).

These batchelor knights owe no feudal service to the crown - this is likley where the biggest source of mercenary knights come from. If Maldan were able to get a bit of influence in Melderyn, this could be a good source of mercenaries. And it would not be an act of war by Melderyn - these are mercenary knights, not agents of the crown. Now if Melderyn openly financed them, that would be another matter.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

The guy he'd be squired to would be a landless knight living in Thay and working as a bodyguard for wealthy travellers (and another PC) and caravans. He and the Harabors (Lesel's brother's son, to be specific, another PC) are in business together--he was poor and borrowed money from them to pay for his own knighting (?).

So, what Maldan would have got out of it would be a kid who would survive to adulthood (Areta wasn't too pleased) and be trained to fight (for Maldan, if he needs him). I've decided that Maldan would treat his bastard son like he's been treated by Miginath, by taking care of him so to get his loyalty. I haven't decided yet if he's going to be acknowledged or not, or if grandpa Miginath knows about his existance or not. Basically, take care of him to make him into someone loyal to him (Maldan) who's got merc friends and lives on the opposite side of Kaldor. I figure Maldan would see himself as basically a force in the north of Kaldor, his brother Koris (with the Royal Gaurd) in center, but he has a lot of rivals in the south-east...


I'm confused--if who someone is squired to has no effect on fealty (no swearing of allegience to anyone in the Melderyni chain of command), what difference would it make that it would hurt Maldan? Assuming the King knew, that is. I can see how it could look bad/underhanded if he kept it secret. But I guess I don't get how it can be a meaningless tie, but still be an insane move?

I would surmise that squiring to a knight-bachelor (ie, landless) would be viewed as a rather desperate, although interesting choice. You mention that this knight lives in Thay but it isn't mentioned if he is actually a Melderyni knight; I personally would recommend that he NOT be, but be from Chybisa, although finding a living as a VIP bodyguard for travellers out of Thay (the reason - he would know of "reliable" people to carry on the guarding once in Chybisa).

I would also recommend that the knight-bachelor have the liege that knighted HIM, knight his squire, making Maldan's kid become in actuality a knight of Chybisa. This way the squire can build a group of martially-inclined friends who actually would be in range to be of service to Maldan within a reasonably short time. (Otherwise it is really a pointless matter.) The funding for this knighthood, which would "help" encourage someone to grant it, presumably would come best from Maldan himself in the form of providing the knight-to-be with the customary armor, weapons, and mount that come with being knighted... (I like to view getting a coat of arms as a separate thing... the knight is "entitled" to it, but it won't be coming his way unless he can pay for it himself... an expense a bit too great unless you actually get a further assignment of a fief.)

If Maldan pays for all this, his son is morally and practically obligated to be loyal to him and to help him in his time of need, presuming the son's morality is such that he doesn't just take it, go pledge his sword to someone else, and father be damned....

I guess that isn't much of a threat. I thought I'd read he was being squired to the king of Melderyn - which would be. (I should read more carefully - someone else brought up that idea.) Going all the way to another kingdom to get squired is probably pretty rare it seemed to follow that it would be to someone of significance.

BTW the knight taking the squire has to have the money to cover significant costs in eventually knighting the squire. Generally the knight pays the costs of arming and armoring and gets a "gift" from the family of the squire.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Understood, although I figured from the description that the arrangement would have been a bit more "mercenary", insofar as the bastard kid needs the training, and to do so in a rather obfuscated way would imply that the hosting knight would do the training, but Maldan may well equip his own kid "through" the hosting knight paying for the kid's knighthood (albeit with Maldan's money)... later the truth could come out, and Maldan's kid realize that he now owes his father big time...

Hence the way I suggested it...

It would be highly unconventional for sure... but then to do it through properly "legit" means may get word back to the wrong people... I would suppose....

I always perceived Maldan as a man for whom the ends always justify the means... but that may be just for my P-Harn....

Hi,
just a quick note..most of the Harabors ARE wealthy Guildsmen, with Maldan and Koris being the exception. They Harabor Clanhead is a major player in the Vemionshire wool trade, and probably the most wealthy guildsman in Vemionshire, his sister was Maldan and Koris' mother. Pick up a copy of the Minarsas pdf, and the Harabor Clan is discussed. Maldan does not get along with his common portion of the family, while Koris visits them often.
Caldeth

The question seems to be: Sheriff Maldan has a bastard son he wants to provide for, but needs to do it sufficiently far away from his wife and legitimate children so that they are not inconvenienced; squiring him out to a non-entity of a landless knight in Melderyn would seem to work. The Sheriff would pony up the money in a disguised manner ("Here is a gift that is in no way payment for services rendered." Perhaps in an annual sort of way.) and the knight would take care of things. Interesting hooks might include the Sheriff's wife finding out where the little bastard is and either hiring some deniable PCs to off the brat, or just paying the training knight to arrange a "Training accident".
Maldan could even tell the King, "I have this illegitimate son, and I want to provide for him, of course, but I don't want him to clutter up the landscape, so I'm going to shuffle him off to Buffalo." The King might appreciate that his son is caring enough to do this.
This is quite different from, say, the Earl of Balim squiring his eldest son to the King of Orbaal. The King of Kaldor would be very interested if that happened.

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Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

Desperate choice, I'd fully agree Even a bastard son of Maldan would be expected to be treated with a bit for fanfair, if he is indeed acknowledged, which it appears he is.

Maybe the idea was to get him out of town to a far away place to both get him trained as a knight but perhaps also get rid of the embarrassment of having a bastard? Not get rid of really, but at least get him out of any local spotlight?



Other than the fact that Ivinians due not have the same practices for squiring, I don't see a real issue. Kaldor and Orbaal do not seem to have any problems with each other.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Apart from the the competing primary religions; the Jarin diaspora in the North; and the Agrikan fighting order. But you are correct; on a political and trade level things seem to be tickety-boo between the two all things considered.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

The religion part of it is an interesting factor.

I wonder if during the reformation, protestants were squired with a catholic family?

Or if Roman Catholics squired with Eastern Orthodox?

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

No idea

Perhaps a closer analogy would be christians squired with Muslim or Perkuns worshipping Lithuanins

Or even closer Christians with Norse mythology followers.....

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

This is actually a tough one. The religions you mentioned all look at the other religions as wrong as opposed to misguided -

Meaning Christians do not believe in the Norse mythos, same with any pagan cultures.

Muslim could be a bit closer, as at least they think they worship the same god, they just are wrong abut all the details.

Perhaps a better analogy would be if a follower of Athena would allow their son to be "squired" by a follower of Ares.

This is probably closer, though a direct comparison is tough.

Most feudal Harnians believe in the existence of Sarajin - they just do not worship him.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....