Boards to discuss Hârn, HârnWorld, HârnMaster, and RPGs in general.
Links - Home - Kelestia Productions - Columbia Games Inc
It is currently Mon May 20, 2013 6:37 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:23 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
The bus will leave from the town square; meet at eight. :twisted:


As you can see; such things are not generally planned in groups; and not commonplace :D

However; although clearly rare; serial killing does occur. It would be comfortably labelled as evil in pre-modern times; and sometimes as the act of a madman. In modern times it would often be described as an act of insanity (Anders Breivvik has just been declared as a delusional paranoid Schizophrenic during his spree) and uncomfortably labelled as evil less often because the medicalised view of some perpertrators. (Those paedophile murderers with personality disorders get to the back of the queue; the dropping of the evil epithet is still a long way off I am afraid :twisted: )

On Harn however; there are two 'evil' churches (Morgath and Naveh), where frequently killing is almost a pre-requisite for advancement. In one the necessity becomes a divine demand; and the other a matter of survival and income generation; which is divinely welcomed, if not demanded.

Where, if at all, oh wise ones; would folk like Giles de Rais and Anders Breivik gravitate? And would they be rejected by said churches for being mental and ill-disciplined?

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:11 am 
Offline
Woodward
Woodward

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:38 am
Posts: 166
The Laranian Church has its share of stone cold killers too, don't forget. There is that nutjob of a Chabla down at Cundras, for example.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:25 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
Stone cold killers are merely good soldiers :D

Is the guy at Cundras unhinged or devout :D ..I am not familiar with his work..

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:57 am 
Offline
Yeoman
Yeoman

Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 8:07 am
Posts: 712
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
The problem with labelling something as "good" or "evil" is that it requires a particular moral viewpoint. decisions about what is good or evil are value judgements, and are highly subjective depending on one's value structures.

In order for a religion to flourish, it needs to have an internally consistent system of morals and values. This was something that I had to deal with squarely when I was the Morgath coordinator for the HRT back in the day, and it was what led me to write the article on Practical Morgathianism. Whether you believe in the underlying tenets of a particular belief system has a lot to do with how you judge the values espoused by that system. To the die-hard Morgathian, the kind of order imposed by a Laranian world-view would be anathema. Even, dare I say, evil. To a die-hard Laranian, the human-sacrifice component of Morgathianism alone would put it in the evil category.

Where you run into trouble is in looking at the underlying tenets of religion or belief, namely that these assumptions and beliefs are by their very nature unprovable. Hence, they must be taken on faith. Whether you think someone is a madman or a prophet largely hinges on whether or not you believe what they are saying is true.

Anders Breivik believed that he was performing a vitally important act in protection of the Norwegian people, and that someday they would thank him. We reject this belief as delusional, as we have rejected the rationales of other serial killers (like David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" killer who heard voices that he attributed to god).

But in the Harnic milieu, I think this problem actually becomes more profound simply because of the profusion of different "socially acceptable" styles of belief. In a setting where the gods are real and supernatural forces abound, it becomes much more difficult to dismiss these beliefs as delusional. You might demonize them, or claim that they are the work of forces anathema to your own belief system, but claims of supernatural involvement are much more likely to be given credence. And if the "delusional" belief system becomes widespread, who is to say that it's false? Balsha was considered little better than a rabble-rousing madman by Corani authorities, and as a heretic by the very Morgathians whose belief system he popularized. Yet his legacy endured, and even worked its way into the Morgathian orthodoxy.

Similarly, you have the "Cult of the Midnight Dancer" in Moleryn. This cult, mentioned in canon as possibly a form of debased Navehanism, could very much be the legacy of one deranged individual who managed to attract a small audience. And in a world where the supernatural is demonstrably real, I would think that it would be easier to gain followers simply because people's belief systems are already open to the idea that there are a wide variety of divine beings out there.

And this sort of fringe belief system need not be confined to the "dark" churches. I could very much see a serial killer with a very devout Peonian belief system who poisons his victims, all of whom he believes are sick and living in severe physical (or even spiritual) pain. He may see himself as doing them a favor by ending their suffering painlessly. Is his belief delusional? Are his actions "evil?" It all depends on whether the premises upon which he's basing his actions are factually right or wrong, which is usually something that's impossible to determine.

To me, this has always been the greatest strength of the Harnic pantheon - whatever you think of the gods themselves, it describes institutions that are very human, and by extension lie open to just the kinds of interesting moral dilemmas, conflicts, flukes, and oddities that make for good role-playing. The first time my players met a sympathetic Morgathian NPC, it sort of threw them for a loop. In my Lia Kavair campaign, several of the players like dealing with the Agrikans because they always know where they stand.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:59 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:09 am
Posts: 4685
Location: Saint-Denys, Gallia Major, Europa, Terra
Peter the skald wrote:
Where, if at all, oh wise ones; would folk like Giles de Rais and Anders Breivik gravitate? And would they be rejected by said churches for being mental and ill-disciplined?
Both would be Laránians; Gilles de Rais was Maréchal de France and Breivik entertained fantasies of himself as a crusader. Insanity IMO isn't a requisite for entering one of the maltheist churches.

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:13 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
Quote:
Both would be Laránians; Gilles de Rais was Maréchal de France and Breivik entertained fantasies of himself as a crusader.


Indeed; my thoughts concur. I think I have perhaps not presented my question accurately enough and used poor examples.

Quote:
Insanity IMO isn't a requisite for entering one of the maltheist churches


Indeed! Or any of the others....although Ilvir.... 8O I should refine my question...

Second attempt: What would the church of Morgath and the church of Naveh make of someone who liked killing people for reasons other than doctrinal compliance? :twisted:

I think it is clearish to me what the other churches would make of them. (What they would do is an altogether matter... :twisted:) Feel free to expand if desired.

Munin has delineated the moral relativism I had hoped to imply and nod to with the use of Parenthesis; but also made me realise my question needs to be further refined!

Third attempt: What would the church of Morgath and the church of Naveh make of someone who liked killing people for a) pleasure b) Because they heard voices.

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:42 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:20 am
Posts: 3110
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Subjectivity leads for difficulty in discussions of good and evil. I think that in a discussion of evil it is better to get a common framework.

I once posted a framework for discussion of good and evil.

Quote:
Cultural Relatvism has also introduced a series of flaws into the discussion of "what is evil". The idea that an a action is made more or less good or evil depending on what side of the issue you happen to be on, which of two groups you happen to be a part of, of whether you happen to commit such acts daily as part of your routine or never in your life. "Opinion", "Self Justification", and "Excuses" have no bearing on the judgement of good/evil.


One problem in the discussion on good and evil so far is that no one is talking about the same thing - because one person states an action and another judges it on effect or on a personal judgement. Just for starters we can break down the commission of any act into four (or more) seperate value judgements.

The four I commonly address would be:

The Person - the overall judgement of the ethics of the person
The Act - the Action itself.
The Result - the effects of the action
The Motive - the intention/reason for the act.

Can a good person commit an evil act? - Yes
Can a evil intent cause a good result? - Yes

Take this example:
A good person, who has always in the past attempted to do the right things for the right reasons, has become fed up with a rival who he feels has been leading the flock astray for may years. So just this once he captures the rival and spiriting him away to a secret place commits horriable acts of violence agaist him for several days until he finally dies. After disposing of the body he returns to his former ways and commits no other such acts - even redoubling his efforts to help and protect others.

Well the person is still overall a good person. The act focused opon causing harm to another and was thus evil (in this case faily extreeme). And the Motive was for personal pleasure or vengence - thus evil.

The Result is yet to be determined. Did the town suffer or benefit overall for this action? The rival may have lead the town on a genocidal campaign - or saved it from plague/disease. And of course the result is not to be judged on the effects to a single town, but to the world as a whole. It may be good to save a town - but not at the expense of the rest of the world.


Even so small an act as stepping on an ant can be good or evil. The act itself causes harm to the ant - but could result in less damage to crops. The person could be motivated by the pleasure of killing the ant, curiosity of what pattern the smear will make, or concern for the welfare of a pet who might otherwise suffer from the ant's bite.

...
Fortunately, for anyone who cares to try to judge the good or evil of an action, person, result, or whatever there is a middle spot. Unlike light and darkness - where darkness is simply a lack of light and there is no spot between light and darkness - good and evil can each be measured individually. Good and Evil are not simply a lack of the other. Carrying a pebble in your left hand instead of your right neither harms nor helps anyone and is niether good nor evil. Indeed an act can be both good and evil at the same time - helping some and harming others. It is reletively easy to weight the evil vs the good in a person, act, motive or result.

_________________
Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:56 am 
Offline
Beadle
Beadle

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:29 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Lockhart, Texas, USA
Liking to kill shouldn't be disadvantage at all - both churches have need of torturers and assassins, and someone has to kill people to create the undead. If they weren't too crazy, they could be a useful tool. It's not the killing that is a problem, it's the ability to direct that killing. Sneaking around killing the local population at random tends to cause trouble and unwelcome attention, so they don't want that. Killing victims that were specifically selected by the church hierarchy is different, as is being a temple guard or soldier. In this regard, I don't see much of a difference between any of the religions.

As for the crazy ones, they are useful on occasion, generally in a limited manner. They can distract the populace with their crazed rantings, or get them worked up into a frenzy that can be guided in a certain direction. They can say the things the church hierarchy is unwilling to say, either because it is unpopular, or simply dangerous. Sometimes it takes a truly insane person to undertake that suicide mission that is desperately needed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:16 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:20 am
Posts: 3110
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Peter the skald wrote:
Second attempt: What would the church of Morgath and the church of Naveh make of someone who liked killing people for reasons other than doctrinal compliance? :twisted:

Third attempt: What would the church of Morgath and the church of Naveh make of someone who liked killing people for a) pleasure b) Because they heard voices.

Morality-wise the Church of Morgath favors those with a low morality. As for good/evil as I judge them (above) morality is kind of a scale of acceptance of evil. A morality of 3 has little or no problem with someone killing for pleasure or whatever excuse. The church of Morgath is full of those with low morality - especially in the upper ranks of the church - so I think serial killers would be relatively accepted there.

In the church of Neveh the Morality scale is a bit higher. Killing for money is generally accepted so serial killing would probably not be totally abhorrent. Often the Church of Neveh lets Neveh decide who is to be killed by random selection with Neveh obviously choosing the target. This seems to indicate that simply killing everyone there is an opportunity or monetary offer to kill is not preferred.

There are probably thoughts as to the role of death in each church.

In the Church of Morgath Balsha put forth that the role of people in life was to reduce their suffering in the afterlife by serving Morgath in life. The church killed Balsha and put an end to his version of Morgathianism so I'm not sure what their goal is said to be. There are probably people that are considered the Church's enemies and those who serve the church's ideals. Killing the one is good and the other is probably bad. If a serial killer's methods led him to killing the servants of the Church he obviously would be considered a problem but random killing would be generally accepted. Causing suffering - torture, rape, imprisonment - could even be considered serving the god.

In the church of Neveh killing is acceptable but torture etc is reserved for the victims chosen by god. Creating children is not prefered so I imagine rape is generally frowned opon. (If one must rape then killing after might be required but I imagine celibacy is by far prefered.) Death is for god to to decide and the members of the church are often his instruments. Randomly killing is just murder.

In both churches there are a range of Moralities and hundred of different opinions on any subject. Some Neveheans might think serial killing to be artistic or divinely inspired. There would certainly be Morgathians that think that rape and torture outside the confines of church docrtine to be offensive.

With the variety of opinions within the church it would be difficult to put a fixed rule on anything. Even if the pontif were to have an opinion on a particular matter it might not be learned of elsewhere and there could be some that teach differently or disagree.

_________________
Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:16 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:09 am
Posts: 4685
Location: Saint-Denys, Gallia Major, Europa, Terra
Peter the skald wrote:
What would the church of Morgath and the church of Naveh make of someone who liked killing people for a) pleasure b) Because they heard voices.
a) Môrgáthans: killing for pleasure is selfish; killing for Klýss's pleasure is commendable. Learn to take pleasure in the service of Klýss and all will be well.
Navéhans: pleasure is but a fleeting illusion and the void within cannot be filled by any amount of it; only discipline will allow the self to endure beyond the ultimate nothingness. Practice discipline by refusing to chase after illusions, and all will be well.

b) (both) Masked inquisitor to shackled quivering shapeless figure on the floor: " So you hear ...voices... Please tell me more about them..."

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:47 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
Thanks Jpurvis, Feanor and Macgorgor

(Btw this was written whilst Feanor and Mac were posting so some points already answered; but could not be bothered to modify too much :D )

To further delineate; I am after what the church of Morgath and the church of Naveh would think of a) killers with shizophrenia b) Killers with a personality disorder

Yes I know scizophrenia is a wide class and personality disorders have several subtypes (although antisocial and borderline PD's I imagine are the common criminals/murderers. btw in my work I support people suffering from both). However; in my opinion they would just about be able to recognise both and the difference....hence the generalised shorthand.

I was not after a description of what evil is; or caveats about even defining something as such. Perhaps that could be another thread.

Perhaps I should add my view:

Naveh:
Schizophrenic: Untrainable/erratic/liability.
PD: Trainable/manageable with force/reward but needs close supervision. An asset. I envisage many Navehans to have a PD :twisted:

Morgath:
Scizophrenic: Chaotic therefore pleasing intellectually. A 'touched' one; an asset to be wheeled out at ceremonies.
PD: Needs whipping constantly to obey mother church and to stop following own whims. Generally an asset.


NB: Lacking empathy is no bar to being extremely succcessful in organizations; and in fact can be helpful IMHO:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2005/apr ... eandhealth So I expect most Harnic institutions to be replete with people with cunningly hidden psychopathology :D

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:27 pm 
Offline
Woodward
Woodward

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:38 am
Posts: 166
Peter the skald wrote:
Is the guy at Cundras unhinged or devout :D ..I am not familiar with his work..


He is the one who is pretty much personally responsible for the entire Solari crusade.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:04 am 
Offline
Yeoman
Yeoman

Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 8:07 am
Posts: 712
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
In my opinion, the churches of Morgath and Naveh are no more or less conducive to the acceptance of people with personality disorders than any other religion. Jean d'Arc (a devout Catholic) claimed to hear the voice of god. Nowadays, we call hearing voices schizophrenia.

This is what I mean about human institutions. People will always find a niche, and in dissociative disorders like schizophrenia the sufferer usually weaves something of their personal beliefs into their delusions. A person raised Morgathian is likely to believe that the Wreaker is directing his actions. A person raised Laranian is likely to believe the Terrible Lady is directing his actions.

And their respective churches' response to these claims is going to vary. Balsha was initially declared a heretic, but his teachings (which were very popular) were later incorporated into the central tenets of the religion. The Chabla of Cundras has kicked off a crusade. Some people will feel that this gives the knights and soldiers of the order a unified purpose. Others will feel it only serves to weaken the order.

One thing needs to be made very clear, however, and that is that even if someone's primary motivation for homicide is in deriving pleasure from the act, they will almost never state that publicly as their true objective. They may not even recognize it themselves. It will always be couched in other justifications, if only to deflect blame or avoid punishment. Because if this, it doesn't matter which church you're talking about, a sociopath will always try to use a justification consistent with the belief structure of his or her peers to validate his or her actions.

And finally, another thing to consider is the rank of the person in question. A person who has managed to work their way into a position of power and/or influence is going to have a lot more leeway to justify their actions, regardless of motive. So the Chabla of Cundras might be a raging homicidal sociopath who dreives great personal pleasure from the suffering inflicted upon the Solori. But he can claim to be doing "the Goddess' work" and his rank is sufficient that that justification is enough to carry others along.

Here's the thing - crazy is like stupid; it doesn't discriminate. There will be crazy Morgathians, crazy Laranians, even crazy Peonians. There will be crazy Kaldorans and crazy Thardans. How any human institution responds to those crazies is going to depend more upon how much the crazy's actions upset the applecart than it does on the nature of the institution itself. If you're $#@! insane but not causing any harm, people are usually willing to let it slide. If you're mildly off but causing all sorts of trouble, you'll usually get squashed like a bug.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:53 am 
Offline
Yeoman
Yeoman

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 637
Location: Oregon City, Oregon
Ok, how about a subtle twist on the question.

Would the Maltheist Churches tend to recruit the homicidally deranged as useful tools and/or spiritual brothers? Would all Harnic churches be equally tempted of recruiting said lunatic as long as s/he were targeting the right victims? Notice I said recruited not coddled or condoning one of their own having such tendencies. Or would most/all of the Harnic religions tend to see them as too unstable to be of much use and thus safer to have eliminated?

How about viewing the acts as just plain morally repugnant? The Peonians should view it as such, how about the Haleans or Save K'norrians? Or is life just too cheap on Harn to be bothered about it?

_________________
...and I'm not dead yet...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:38 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:09 am
Posts: 4685
Location: Saint-Denys, Gallia Major, Europa, Terra
GronkGroks wrote:
Would the Maltheist Churches tend to recruit the homicidally deranged as useful tools and/or spiritual brothers? Would all Harnic churches be equally tempted of recruiting said lunatic as long as s/he were targeting the right victims?
How do you control an insane person? In the medium to long term you can't, that's insanity for you.

GronkGroks wrote:
Notice I said recruited not coddled or condoning one of their own having such tendencies. Or would most/all of the Harnic religions tend to see them as too unstable to be of much use and thus safer to have eliminated?
When recruiting killers for hire one may always unknowingly enrol a psychopathic murderer or two, but such persons tend to quickly garner reputations as unreliable or worse, even in criminal circles. Thus they will usually run afoul of common or royal law first, before even encountering canon courts.

GronkGroks wrote:
How about viewing the acts as just plain morally repugnant? The Peonians should view it as such, how about the Haleans or Save K'norrians? Or is life just too cheap on Harn to be bothered about it?
With gentle Peoni worshipped by ~90% of the population at large, 'Life is Cheap' probably isn't the most popular of the Hârnic memes.

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:56 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
Quote:
How do you control an insane person? In the medium to long term you can't, that's insanity for you.


If you consider Personality Disorder as as insanity, you can control someone to a great degree with close supervision and token economies.

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:33 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:09 am
Posts: 4685
Location: Saint-Denys, Gallia Major, Europa, Terra
Peter the skald wrote:
Quote:
How do you control an insane person? In the medium to long term you can't, that's insanity for you.
If you consider Personality Disorder as as insanity, you can control someone to a great degree with close supervision and token economies.
As I see it, modern psychiatry generally isn't much different from medieval religion, i.e. pretty much whatever you think or do can be considered a sin/mental disorder, and it is working in tandem with the establishment to maintain normative pressure. Sucks if that is what passes as your religion, IMO. :(

BTW, 'token economies'? What did you mean?

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:56 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
Token economies are kinda what they sound like; but with token rewards usually also applied for absence of behaviours....

So; you have a sociopath who really likes jelly babies, but hates cleaning their room; and also punches people on and off.

You set up a system whereby the get a token for each day they tidy their room. They get a token for each day they don't punch anyone. If they get a week with fourteen tokens they get some jelly babies.

It can work extremely well for focusing the mind of people with PD; who seem not to heed the more abstract token economies of the real world (such as social acceptance, wages and prison for example). Tokens are used so as not to use instant rewarders...as such more direct bribery tends to satiate more quickly.

Problems arise if the reward is not strong; or if the only strong rewards are um...impractical. (such as getting to eat children for example :twisted: Although I bet the Morgathian church can REALLY motivate the difficult characters!!!! :twisted:)

Problems also arise with supervision...."So did you hit anyone this week?"
"No." :D
"Did you eat any jelly babies?"
"No" :lol:

They can be surprisingly effective if applied vigourously with close supervision; and hence only work perfectly in hospital environments (although they may use them in prison?).

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:11 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:09 am
Posts: 4685
Location: Saint-Denys, Gallia Major, Europa, Terra
Oh, I see, thanks Mr Skald. Looks somewhat like parenting with difficult kids, or training big cats for a circus show.

Also it seems like the method wouldn't work in anything but a closed environment, or as you say, "applied vigourously with close supervision", making it of dubious value for an Hârnic church looking for a method of controlling sociopaths let loose on the Misty Isle, as per the original thread matter thrice clarified.

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:25 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
Quote:
Also it seems like the method wouldn't work in anything but a closed environment, or as you say, "applied vigourously with close supervision", making it of dubious value for an Hârnic church looking for a method of controlling sociopaths let loose on the Misty Isle, as per the original thread matter thrice clarified.


Apparrently; there is a russian psychiatrist who tries this... 8O (Not on Harn; but in Russia)...might explain the high murder rate!!!!!

The Church of Morgath and Naveh I would argue could achieve closer supervision than possible even on on high tech Terra.... :twisted:

Also; there are two factors that can ....convince/trick some sociopaths into compliance.

One is sort of internal: if the person believes they will always be caught in the act; they will comply. A paranoid aspect to such a person helps :twisted: But by catching them out all the time initially (in set up situations if you like) you can generalise the feeling of inevitable discovery. Unfortunately; it is likely such an individual will eventually trangress and not get caught...and then begin to experiment more and more with transgressing...

The other is sort of external: Where the person thinks they will not get caught in the act; you can threaten 'certain' discovery through lie detectors. In Harn IMHO the perceived and actual reliability and incitefulness of such methods would be greater. Truth invocations ACTUALLY work. :wink:

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:56 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:09 am
Posts: 4685
Location: Saint-Denys, Gallia Major, Europa, Terra
Peter the skald wrote:
macgorgor wrote:
Also it seems like the method wouldn't work in anything but a closed environment, or as you say, "applied vigourously with close supervision", making it of dubious value for an Hârnic church looking for a method of controlling sociopaths let loose on the Misty Isle, as per the original thread matter thrice clarified.
Apparrently; there is a russian psychiatrist who tries this... 8O (Not on Harn; but in Russia)...might explain the high murder rate!!!!!
An Evil Genius™ no doubt.

Peter the skald wrote:
The Church of Morgath and Naveh I would argue could achieve closer supervision than possible even on on high tech Terra...
C'mon, the same Terra where we have GPS, RFID, CCTV, where phones are smarter than their users and matter-of-factly spy on them, where people actually volunteer to share their whole life stories with a nebulous super-entity apparently worshipped under the guise of a cloud? Piety points can only get you so far in term of miracles, while technology and the magics it works, these kind of tend grow on you. :mrgreen:

Peter the skald wrote:
Also; there are two factors that can ....convince/trick some sociopaths into compliance.

One is sort of internal: if the person believes they will always be caught in the act; they will comply. A paranoid aspect to such a person helps :twisted: But by catching them out all the time initially (in set up situations if you like) you can generalise the feeling of inevitable discovery. Unfortunately; it is likely such an individual will eventually trangress and not get caught...and then begin to experiment more and more with transgressing...

The other is sort of external: Where the person thinks they will not get caught in the act; you can threaten 'certain' discovery through lie detectors. In Harn IMHO the perceived and actual reliability and incitefulness of such methods would be greater. Truth invocations ACTUALLY work. :wink:
That is truly disturb..., I mean, interesting, awfully, yes. To me those appear almost Navéhan-like methods, manipulative, cold and calculating, and also definitely behaviourist. :scared:

So in terms of efficiency the benefits are slight, while the energy (you invoke miracles, no less) spent is great, and the whole thing can quickly turn into a severe liability. This would tend to indicate that, while maltheist (and other) churches could use mind control techniques occasionally, these would remain experimental and (fantasy trope obliges) end badly, very badly indeed. Could be interesting to have the (fragmentary) diaries of such an experiment by some long-dead Navéhan priest floating around in-game. :)

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:02 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
Quote:
So in terms of efficiency the benefits are slight, while the energy (you invoke miracles, no less) spent is great, and the whole thing can quickly turn into a severe liability. This would tend to indicate that, while maltheist (and other) churches could use mind control techniques occasionally, these would remain experimental and (fantasy trope obliges) end badly, very badly indeed. Could be interesting to have the (fragmentary) diaries of such an experiment by some long-dead Navéhan priest floating around in-game


I like your thinking!! :twisted: :twisted:

Makes one think what/who would be worth expending all that effort for.....

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:27 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:20 am
Posts: 3110
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
macgorgor wrote:
Also it seems like the method wouldn't work in anything but a closed environment, or as you say, "applied vigourously with close supervision", making it of dubious value for an Hârnic church looking for a method of controlling sociopaths let loose on the Misty Isle, as per the original thread matter thrice clarified.

I have an idea!

Instead of watching them constantly and trying to apply punishments and rewards they can pretend there is an all-knowing all-seeing entity that KNOWS if they are going around punching people and tell them if they do then the all-knowing all-powerful enity will punish them eternally in the most horriable ways imaginable! :idea:

(It probably works even better on non-sociopaths. You could give them all sorts of rules they have to follow and tell them how to live their lives and what to think, etc.)

_________________
Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)


Last edited by Feanor on Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:31 am 
Offline
Baron
Baron
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:09 am
Posts: 4685
Location: Saint-Denys, Gallia Major, Europa, Terra
Peter the skald wrote:
I like your thinking!! :twisted: :twisted:
Well, see, I have this black box here, that's where my thoughts originate from. Do you like that box, too? :?

Peter the skald wrote:
Makes one think what/who would be worth expending all that effort for.....
The usual, instant deniability: "A madman did it" (again).

_________________
«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:43 am 
Offline
Grand Master Silly Bugger
Grand Master Silly Bugger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 pm
Posts: 3689
Location: Bicester, Oxfordshire, England.
Quote:
The usual, instant deniability: "A madman did it" (again).


I was thinking more on the lines of a chosen one....who is not punished or left to the authorities but protected and nurtured...

Rather like the psychopathic killer son of the Cathar Lord in The hour of the Pig: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hour_of_the_Pig

_________________
Plots and schemes are the same thing..


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: John Southgate and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group