Hmm. Then I must be member of some heretic faction:

Daniel 2,4-7,28
Ezra (partial)
Mark 5,41; 7,34; 14,36; 15,34
Ro 8,15
Gal 4,6

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

With regard to fitting Morgathian into your Christian mold, I would think Haitian Voodoo is a good analogy. Voodoo is a mix of African tribal practices and Christianity. To be honest I do not much about voodoo other than it involves black magic and zombies; but your PCs wont know much about Morgatian practices other than it involves black magic and glumorvins .

I think actually the Harnic Pantheon could be re-interpreted to a theology with Monotheism at it's base with some pagan elements. A quick transmutation of some of the religions -

The following are of a "christian" element, just various "sects" or preactices -

Save-K'nor - Monastics. Often in isolation, at least to themselves. They also represent the educated monks, who often were the ones who were able to record/write historical records. Much of the better detailed manorial agricutural output often comes from church run estates as a real world example. They would still be the "knowledgeable" ones.

Peoni - Various Friars, of whom some had a vow of poverty, often interacting directly with the lower classes.

Larani/Agrik - Get rid of the Balrogs, they could well be various sects within a religion, and often in opposition,

The others -

Halea - I like the idea of tying this to the Jewish religon, though one would either have to get rid of the Halean sexuality, or make this a more sexualized version of the Jewish religion. Origins in Karejia would make sense.

Ilvir - Druidism would make sense, though the presence of their god on Harn may not.

Sarajin - Typical Norse (pagan) religion.

Naveh - A bit tougher here. Perhaps a sect of Lythian Islam - but only a sect, and perhaps Harnians only exposure to Luthian "Islam", leading to a lot of wrong conclusions. The Navehans could be a branch the Middle ages assasin that were in the Middle East. Some Harnians might confuse this sect of "islam" with worship of Morgath.

Siem - Tough one for certain. Perhaps combine Siem and Ilvir into Druidism? The idea of "spirits" being all over (such as Asiri, Elmithri, etc.) would make this a very heretical religion. Of course the elves worship how they wish to. And this could even be a monotheistic belief in general - Same one god, though the "Siemists" give respect to all the woodland spirits, in many ways how the non-"pagan" Harnians worship their saints and prophets.

Morgath - Devil worshippers, or the evil deity who wrestles with the one god for control of men's souls. The only thing - I would think it would be difficult to have had worshippers of Morgath as a controlling faction as with Balsha, at least as open worshippers.

One would not need a "Christ" though, merely a monotheistic religion similar to Judaism or Islam, with various prophets and saints as part of the religion. The acknowledgement and worship and degree of worship given the various saints could well have a lot to do with some of the factions disdain towards each other.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

In addition to running my Harn game I am also a player in a 7th Sea game, and I've got to agree that I love the way they did religion in that game. Though I'd clarify a little bit and say that the Objectionists are essentially protestants whose issue is not with the teachings of the prophets but rather with the structure of the church itself. The game's religion is interesting and well done because it's so easily accessible - the names are similar enough (the main church is referred to as the "Vaticene," there are the aforementioned "Objectionists" in place of Protestants, etc). That way even though it's not Christianity, it's familiar enough that everyone understands the dynamics of the forces at play. Very well thought out.

That's what I meant that it would be easy to make a Harnic version of a "christian like" monotheism without too much work.

Tough to say what the breach between Agrik and Larani would be though. Almost seems like the Agrikans would be the "objectionsists" as they seem the furthest from the other monotheistic versions, Larani, Peoni, Save.

Something to give them their warlike nature (though Agrikans may preech Laranians are the ones that are warlike).

The other tough part with Larani/Agrik is that in some regions, both are practiced, though in others only one or the other is the official religion.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I'm converting Lythia to Ars Magica/Mythic Europe. I kept Siem, Morgath and Ilvir as pagan gods (magic realm). But I made Christianity encompass Peoni, Agrikan and Larani traditions by simply making them monastic/fighting orders. The Peonians are similar to the Franciscans, the Larani more Dominican. The various fighting orders subscribe to their monastic Rule (Larani mainly). However, the Agrikans are a disfavored order. Intolerant, founders of witch-hunts and Inquisitions, the Agrikans are hardcore militants regarding the faith and the slaying of witches. I have that they fell out of favor with the Church in a manner similar to the Templars of our world. Many of them were prosecuted for various crimes including diabolism which left a stain on the Order. The Pontiff/Pope, in Tengela, simply pretends they don't exist and they've regained some authority in more far-flung locations such as Harn, Lankor and a few holdings in the Holy Land (Dalkesh).

The majority of people were not literate. Christianity assimilated many cults by utilizing local politics, adopting and incorporating some of their customs into the church to make it more palatable including dealing with the cult leadership or driving the cults out.

I long ago trashed the Gods of Harn, stroking away any current remnant of them - if any reference appears in my world (books) - they are considered long forgotten pagan gods whose heathen ways were denounced and eradicated by the current religious model.

What has always amazed me was how detailed Harn is, yet the religious model was a thrown together haphazard concoction of stolen ideas (while smoking some seriously strong herbal mix) from our own Earth. When someone posts a concept of making Harn's religious model based on something that is a bit easier to understand/follow I cheer, because they obviously see the same issues I do.

Lack of continuity, confusing god-forms, misaligned representation to what each god actually has power over, etc.

When you pull this all together I'd love to read through it. It sounds good so far, and I for one wish you success.

Cheers,

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"Honor is earned through the balance of peace and harmony, yet to the Master all eyes are open to possibilities".

Silverleaf 1981

I am going to pretend a hackneyed anti-Semitic cultural stereotype was not just used as a means of comparing Haleanism to Judaism. On a religious level the two are like oil and water. Its deeply offensive.

Yeah; those Haleans get well offended when get compared with Hackneyed stereotypes Not that they would understand deep philosophical comparisons; but they know a prejudice when they see one

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

One option would be to treat the harnic pantheon as a group of harnic heroes, saints, and prophets who have been worked into the canon. Instead of churches they could be orders. Some accepted and some proscribed. Even the accepted ones may be in conflict with one another, much as real world orders often were. Doing it this way also opens the door to more breadth. These would be the major ones, but other prominent religious figures mentioned in canon might also be lesser saints or minor prophets.

Larani could easily be turned into a patron saint of knights, women's honor, and courtly love. Since some research indicates courtly love may never have been as pure as romantics painted it as being the nature of the concept could be a major point of contention in the order - and a point of commonality for some with Haleans (who if done as below could even be consulted as experts).

Peoni could be the patron saint of peasants, cripples, widows, orphans, the downtrodden, etc.

You could redo Halea as the minor prophet who laid out dictums covering pacts and bargains. In a sense, an arbiter of contract and custom. They might be routinely consulted on the form of marriage contracts, business contracts, and the like (this assumes a certain amount of "mos maiorum" in harnic legal think). This would make her sect socially powerful, but at odds with socially conservative sects focused on morality. Her cult might view prostitutes and courtesans as engaging in one of the most straightforward and basic contacts. Other orders focused on purity and holiness might chafe at the notion, which is not to say Haleans consider would consider it ideal (assuming they are a part of a broader Judeo-christian inspired monotheistic milieu). Perhaps they are advocates of courtly love for the unmarried and torrid monogamy for the married!

Save Knorr could be a mystically inclined prophet whose writings form a particular school of esoteric thought. He could double as the patron of scholars, mystics, visionaries, mages, and the like. His priests would work best as traditional monks and scholars - illumination, transcribers, theologians, etc.

Those born of stereotypes are doomed to be cast as one! I've always felt the haleans were badly handled.

They're treated like a fanservice cult that doesn't serve a meaningful social purpose in the overall harnic milieu.

Haleans seem to function like an ancient near eastern fertility and mystery cult engaging in heiros gamos or sacred prostitution (e.g., Innana, Ishtar, Aphrodite, etc).

I've usually de-emphasized the epicurean sensualist aspects and focused on their role enforcers and makers of bargains - social mores, class prerogatives, venerated customs, and contracts just existing on different levels of explicitness.

"Everything a bargain; and a bargain a bond."

"Class, Cult, and Contract define us."

A common route that many follow here I believe....


In my game (and possibly referred to elsewhere somewhere in Canon/Fanon, I cannot recall) this puts them at specifically at odds on Harn with Laranaism...which is creeping towards monotheism and Establishment in the East...whether this would be less or more of a tension if they were 'saints under one roof' I do not know....

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

In specific, the Babylonian Talmud. The Mishna, Jerusalem Talmud, and almost every significant commentary from the Talmudic era were written in Hebrew. As is almost every major rabbinic work. Some rabbinic works - due to their penchant for quoting the babylonian talmud - border on being a Hebrew-Aramaic creole, but significant works actually written in Aramaic are the exception rather than the rule. The BT was written in Aramaic so as to make it accessible to laymen. Among scholars Hebrew was always king.

If the religion is already monotheistic and they are 'all under one roof' it could be used as a catalyst for tensions between 'religious pragmatists' (the Haleans) and pietists/idealists (the Laranians).

To me, it just showed that NRC was far more interested in heraldry and local Harnic history, and less interested in religion, history and cultural change. I'll contribute small amounts to Turin's endless economic models, but would never use them myself. I like my stories to have people of note, so veteran manor lords are much more common as main characters than farmers and yeomen, and barons, bishops, shek p'var and the like make regular public appearances. This would be anathema to others, but our pHarns are still recognizable to each other. Few of us use Harn unaltered, but there is enough there for any of us to use as a base for our little game world.

I find heraldry boring and unproductive, so it is completely gone in my pHarn. Individual warriors may have their shields painted in simple designs, and families regularly have a common insignia/color pattern, but no more than this. They may use a red rose, or a brown pig on a green field, and can be identified this way, but the actual practice of heraldry is absent. However, in my pHarn, religion is quite important. I've tweaked it in small ways from canon, but it is still quite recognizable. Add some background material here and there, borrow liberally from the HRT page, invent a little of my own, and I find it very usable and playable. It's not so much the canon religion that bothers me, but the history and development of those religions, and this is a much easier fix.

I certainly lean towards the Laranian monotheism model, at least for the fighting orders. They just seem rather intolerant, and this makes for more friction, and thus stories worth telling.

Although I will use almost none of this thread in my Harnic storyline, it does give many ideas on how to integrate the Harnic deities into a Hacheradad campaign, which I hope to create some day. With the dualistic notions of that religion, I could simply say that each Harnic deity is to be integrated as minor powers, but creating a unified religion with each as aspects of the whole is much more interesting.