When everyone is comfortable with the rules, assuming a group of four players facing off against four or five Gargun, on average, how fast does combat play out?

Thanks

Such a battle (using HM3) would rarely last longer than two or three minutes "Gametime" or 20-30 minutes "Realtime".

This includes the aftermath
But we use minutes and terrain pieces (from DnD) so the walking and overlooking parts are easy. Also we (of course) use the option (option ?) that suggests that you pre-calculate your combat figures all the way (AML/DML includes ML, AC/DC and EP).

This also includes that fact that I use the basic rules about WQ (the harsh basic rule, not the even harsher optional rule) and that can mean that EP (and other stats) can change all of a sudden, but those figures are easy to calculate, or for me to do an "on the fly" GM discretion.

I have (currently) two players that have played HM (most versions) since the 90s and RPG (in general) since the 80s. I also have two new players that only have about five years or so of experience.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Thanks Fenhorn

I should add that none of my players have a warrior type character so when they fight they fight with caution and basic weapons. I can imagine that if they would have been warriors with better armours and weapons and thought "basic" Garguns the battle could be significantly shorter because most of the enemies die faster (meaning less book-keeping for me).

I can also say that once my players (playing craftsmen/militia and hunters/trappers mostly) had an NPC knight with them. They faced 17 bandits. They realized that escaping would be difficult so they decide to take the battle in a ruin not far away (not at all the way I imagine the scene when I wrote it ). This battle took two or maybe three hours to play out, the delay was me of course (the GM), having 17 NPC to play (the knight was handled by one of the players).

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

It's all in player training. If you have to tell the players, "Now roll for location . . . " every time then you can't shoo a cat in less than a half-hour. If you have new players, don't just wave your hands and say, "You'll pick it up fast." An hour spent training up front will save you as much time in your first adventure.

In a recent HMG session, 2 PCs fought 4 tribals. The tribals were below average in terms of weapons and armour. The fight lasted 15 rounds - a total of 6 hours and 15 minutes of real time. That is an average of 27 minutes per round. We were relatively new to HMG and those times included rules discussions.

This is not the norm; I would hesitate to further even for newbies. Severin I beleive is extremely thourough.


For us hardened hacks....1 rnd two combatants would take about 2 minutes; longer if unconsciousness and consciousness and shock achieved...

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

6 hours and 15 minutes? Surely not

This is one of the reasons I play HM3 and not HMG or HM1.

When I played HM1 I remember that a lot of battles ended with me (GM) saying that "The enemies are to badly beaten and give up" because the battle became uninteresting and peoples minds has started to wander. The "bookkeeping" takes a lot longer, even if you are experienced, especially for the GM. But the battles also takes a lot longer, especially if the first minutes or so only results in hits that doesn't generate shock rolls, meaning only a penalty. This can (and it often did) end up with a group of PCs and some Garguns for example that are badly injured (EML of perhaps 5-10 after injuries) and a battle that will consist of a lot of misses until somone end up with a lucky strike (often the PCs if me as the GM rolls hidden ).

I remember one PC (a Khuzdul) that had 174 IP (HM1) before he went down (a lot of strikes on locations that doesn't generate shock rolls). Sure his movement was down to five foot and all his skills was using the "EML 05" rule.

6 hours is totally plausible, I have had battles (in HMG/1 that is) that has taken most of our session, perhaps 6 hours is a little bit extreme, but in HMG/1 it can happen.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Severin will have to answer that one

However; he has posted (along with graphics) the most articulate deconstructions of combat sessions (mostly VS undead...which would explain some lengthiness); whose questions and explanations are most informative; I hope he directs you to them here.

Harnmaster is detailed...perhaps defined by detail. The more...randomised or determined factors one deals with the longer the explanation of a combat is... with intiative; compared combat skills, player options in battle; hit location; damage determination; armour protection, actual damage effect etc etc time can stumble on.

If you are happy with a more narrative style of denouement you can dispense with many (but not all probably; it is a game) rolls..and it can speed up.

If you want a more simulationist game then max all the rolls/calculations and no-one will feel they are being cheated/bull****ted, but it may take longer.

Most people I feel fall in the middle...demanding hit location and damage rolls but not particularly bothering with calculating fatigue that accurately...

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

The Gul fight document?

I read that, it helped me immensely, and was a great read.

Yes indeed. We have the session recorded, so there is evidence. This was not the series of Gul fights (which was HM3). You can search the forum for Gul to find the thread on that. Here is a link to the final HM3 Gul encounter: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/940994/Gul_fight5.pdf

The 6 and a quarter hour tribal fight was our second attempt at HMG.
Our objective in staging these fights is try to understand the combat system. So we tend to play with the optional rules. We also ask questions about how the rules are written and how they apply to various situations. So it is likely that our sessions (especially the first couple) take longer than normal.

We will likely run several more fights including combat against HMG Guls.

A cluster of HM1 hit locations that are frequent Thorax, Abdomen, and Hip (41-84) all have E shock rolls except for Hip on the Point aspect. Thorax and Abdomen are e2's at the first threshold and go up to e3's at the next.

There are 17 potential locations for a humanoid (not counting tail and wing).

9 have E shock rolls on Edge.


Sure strange things happen...

On the contrary, with a decent armour, most hits you will get is minor and most minors doesn't generate e-rolls and a lot of hits are on the arms and legs (inc. hips). But sure to have 174 IP before going down is rare.

I actually invented a houserule just because of this character, that you can take END x5 IP and after that you will always roll e2 if you are hit (or add e2 if there is a e-roll).

And I know that HMG uses a similar method, but HMG was built on ideas that flew around at the time.

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"Corpora lente augescent cito extinguuntur" - Tacitus
Fenhorn's Hârnpage

Yes any heavily equiped character with a high Endurance is going to be tough.

Although the Arm and Leg hits are going to generate Fumble and Stumble checks. If the character has a high Dex and Agility along with high Endurance that is going to be rare. Losing a weapon or going falling down prone isn't good.

Thorax and Abdomen wounds that don't don't penetrate and become Blunt are still E2. Hip starts at E1 for both Edge and Blunt.

Attacking a Prone foe yields a +20 bonus

In combat against a 05 EML (or any low EML), eventually some 2d6 and greater impacts are going to be generated. This isn't even taking into account Bleed wounds.

I just finished GMing what has become my group's longest combat session, it lasted the best part of three 4-hour playing sessions! Most certainly our most epic battle to date. My group took part in an attack upon a small colony of brown orcs who had holed up in a cavern, (I used the 'Caves (Gargun Colony)' mini-adventure from Harn Pottage 1). Our party of six attacked alongside a Khuzdul clansman, (from 'Friends, Foes And Followers-12'), three knights from the Lady Of Paladins, six foot soldiers from the Lady of Paladins, and 10 of Morgal's Rangers, with another 10 rangers outside guarding the entrance. The orcs numbered 41 plus 1 queen. Each round consisted of so many individual rolls due to the number of combatants, but we were determined to play out the entire combat, and it proved worthwhile, ending in a severed queen's head!

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"The woods are alive with the smell of his coming!" Ilviran chant.

How long did it last in game time?

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Even though I am generally more of the fan of the HM1/HMG rules, I do like HM3 in someways for speed of play. I like the HM1 injury tables, but I also like HM3 Injury and Fatigue for easy calculation of penalties.

One thing I'd agree with though, is that HM1/G has too much of a "death spiral", EML's that dwindle to nothing with any entity that has a high END.

HM3 though IMO is a little to fast with combat - only meaning that the penalties due to injury result in too quick of KO's. If I have a 2IL foot wound, I roll 2D6 in addition to any other injury penaties I have, plus the injury that actually requires a sock roll. If playing HM3, I'd go one added to the roll for every IL or FL. Actually, I think this would make more sense for HM1 also - So a dwarf with 18 END who is reduced to a -50 by injuries/fatigue is adding 10 to any shock rolls, not addign 5. That is a big difference - From a 13 on a shock roll being needed for a KO to an 8 being needed for a KO.

The one thing that I think might be realistic - "morale" rolls from time to time based on injuries taken in combat. And this morale may mean flee, drop to the ground, or even just to be totally defensive - I think that is one reason why HM1/G combats can be so drawn out, and deadly where 75% of the contestants are dead after a melee.

A roll against Initiative perhaps, Modified by any IP/IL's sustained. And maybe you roll this whenever you take a 3IL injury or better, or if you are stunned. IDK, a never playtested it.

And while it would add more rolls, these additional rolls would serve to get rid of contestants and actually make combat quicker. I think all the various incarnations of HM have rules similar to this for morale.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I am not sure what sort of combat you get yourself into where you would need a sock roll

Some mornings, just getting dressed can be a real battle.

We are trying to use the rules as written. We want to make sure we understand the rules before we modify them with house rules. We have also provided Kelestia with some initial feedback in the hopes that it might help improve future products.

A grievous wound to the foot I guess

But actually, In addition to carrying their bedrolls, Thardan Legionairres are famous for carrying their sock rolls as well. Sock rolls are also known to be eaten in times of famine, though even barley rolls rate ahead of them.



Actually, Comabt 18 in HM3 has the morale rules I speak of above, using initiative as the ML tested. It does not specifically state when to test morale, other than usually you don't test in the first few rounds, but the morale rules are pretty much up to GM distretion.

I've just added some guideleines for "GM discretion"

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Famour for??? Is that a system of communicating with flags for people with a speech impediment??

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Turin, that works. We have arrived at the same conclusion when playing HMG. It makes sense for people that are wounded to try and exit a fight rather than stay in with severe penalties that ultimately make them next to useless. Of course, if one is truly wounded, escape might not be possible.

Just another point - we aren't fighting with superior combatants. The tribals we are using have pretty terrible stats and almost no armour. Yet the fight still lasted 15 rounds. Just food for thought. If people here think it would be helpful, I could probably review the HMG tribal session and write it up similar to what we did with the HM3 Gul fight.

About 5 mins of game time from the first blow!

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"The woods are alive with the smell of his coming!" Ilviran chant.