Perhaps these cities do have some underground energy source, like warm springs, or lava caves, that do support and sustain a larger underground ecosystem that can be salvaged?

This migth also explain that the inhabitants never spread out or moved. Salvaging several thousand square km of terrain without being encountered by locals on a regular base certainly makes the masters of woodcraft and stealth, more alike our Tolkienesque imagination of sindai then khuzan.

Summing up, we have:

1. The known agricultural crop land of Azadmere does not seem to sustain Azadmere's population.
2. There is no farmed land known to be used by the populations of the other Khuzan societies (Kondasgel/Merdain).
3. The Harnic Khuzdul used to operate dozens of Kygs - probably bases for hunting and foraging - scattered throughout the island, but abandoned most of these after the Battle of Sorrows. Probably most of the remaining Kygs near Azadmere/Kiraz have been abandoned since the Gargun reached Harn. (Nothing known about something like this for the other dwarves.)
4. However, the local natural resources (including hunting, fishing, foraging and farming) would probably suffice to feed the according populations.
5. Canon states, that all Khuzan communities except Azadmere have closed themselves in. No contact with humans was reported since their isolation began (for some thousand years). This almost renders out extensive use of surface resources, like farming, large scale hunting and foraging, since it is highly improbable to do so completely unnoticed over hundreds of years.
6. Almost no other comments on khuzan nutrition are known from canon (apart from that they have an at least slightly different metabolism, depending on other micronutrients/mineral salts).
7. Mushrooms could be cultivated, but this relies on organic matter to be brought from the surface (otherwise the underground resources would have been failed within some decades or centuries).
8. Food chains completely independent from sunlight (depending on sulfate/sulphur) may contribute to the diets, but achievable yields would be low.
9. Food growing outside, but coming back regularly (like salmon) might contribute for a large part of the food, but for Azadmere, Tuleme falls will probably close them out.
10. Trade may contribute to feeding Azadmere, but traffic is too scarce to make up for the complete food deficit. The other Khuzan cities are isolated and do not trade, as long as we know.
11. The khuzdul are highly developed craftsmen. This predates the contact with men: The Khuzdul of Merdain/Kondasgel teached human societies in their crafts. So, while trade may have allowed for more of their time to be spent on crafting, the Khuzdul - at least once - had the ability to completely support themselves.

Did I miss something?

Now, whatever combination of resources probably available we chose, the consequence is always the same: The Khuzdul are not as pictured by "canon" articles and most of us, but almost completely different!

Another thing: To me, the Khuzdul seem to be described as traditionalists, probably slow adaptors. Would they be able to radical changes concerning the very base of their economy and society? Like a complete rebuild of their nutrition support after isolating their societies from outside, further more: after literally locking themselves in? That does not seem plausible to me. It would take a long time to adapt to a completely unknown situation and develop new techniques. So, if they actually isolated themselves, they have probably practiced according nutrition methods all the time and just changed the priorities.

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

Tuleme Falls does not close out salmon according to canon. Thus Tuleme Falls must be a series of rapids/low falls with pools between and not a single long drop.

Per HarnDex:
"A series of waterfalls, having a total height of 50 feet..."

That's just an assumption. We know almost nothing about Merdain. For all we know it has its own Habe-like satellite community. Farmed by hobbits. (I mean, halflings.)



In Ivinian, at least, there is the "Kingdom of Kuzjera", which I'll wager dollars-to-doughnuts translates to "Dwarven Hunting Grounds". The isolation of Kuzjera is relative, it seems.



I like the idea of dwarves as skilled hunters and trappers, masters of the harsh mountains. I have always visualized them covered in furs, so it doesn't strike me as odd to imagine that they trapped their own. And canon refers more than once to their hunting. From what I see, NRC had a pretty good handle on this topic.

Where I imagine we go wrong is assuming that everything in a dwarf's life centers around the forge. Well, that's just the kind of elitist stereotyping we get from Sindar stories.

The highest passable waterfall in Scotland today is 12 feet, for modern Atlantic salmon. In Alaska, wild salmon clear this distance or greater for some runs. Most runs do not have high falls to contend with.

The falls at Tuleme are a series of falls, total height of 50 feet. I interpret this to mean that there is more than one, more than two, likely more than three, probably even more falls involved. I imagine a "series of waterfalls" to mean that while there might be one or two "big" ones of up to 10-12 feet, there are probably also numerous small rocky falls of 1-2 feet. It isn't one big waterfall, which at 50' would be impassable to salmon, but a rocky rapids with several drop-offs of various heights which all add up to 50'. Certainly passable for wild salmon without any stretch of imagination.

The salmon which make this run are bred from other salmon who have successfully made this run before, their parents, and upteen generations back into the sands of time which have also successfully made this run before. They didn't just wander up this river and wonder, on a lark, if they might make it.

See also:
viewtopic.php?t=10142&p=135920

The Khuzdul and Azadmere articles include discussions of the issue of farming/fishing/herding vs the hunting/gathering approach, and also the impact of mushroom farming (done within played out sections of the mines), the arrival of a large refugee population (until which, Azadmere could presumably feed itself well enough), and the human fishing on Lake Arain.

There's also the issue of the loss of several outposts (including Pyxyn and Fana) in recent (to a dwarf) history. If those outposts had any associated food resources, it would have been an additional pressure.

Indeed, one should consult the sources prior to writing. So here some more lapsus:









So, the Khuzdul must be excellent hunters and gatherers, since they were capable of supporting the large city of Kiraz that way (Kiraz was larger than Azadmere). They also

mastered agriculture and fishing, but have always strongly disliked these ways.













So, there is some trade even in Ivinia. The Khuzdul patrolled the land until 430 TR and probably sustained their people themselfs as hunter gatherers, but seem to have

given up this way. Instead, they commit trade with the Yarili, which also act as intermediaries for limited trade. Food imported via the Yarili seems to be insignificant,

since the sources state that the Yarili produce the most part of the food for the dwarves themselves.

However, I'd really like to learn how these <200 guys keep up feeding themselves plus 1300+ dwarves all those years long... You know, cold climate, not very productive nature,

overhunting, ...




While this "proofs" that they do grow mushrooms, we get no notice about the extents and any details of this practice.




No trade with humans, but maybe with some other race? (I don't think so.) And most interestingly the "citizens rarely come above ground". This could imply that some

outside supporters exist, but are not counted to the "citizens". However, they might be dwarves. (But nothing of this is written.)



Once again: "Not much to do" may mean there is some trade. Also,in this case assuming overground farming, hunting and foraging by the dwarves is not as strictly

discouraged as in the case of Erdar.

In the Azadmere module, some references indicate that Larhakul and Erdar have never had anything to do with the humans. There is even no legend or other kind of reference to

these cities in human history.



Either Merdain has perished or established a total isolation. In the latter case, outdoor/surface activities are probably minimal, making for a unnoticeable/unconceivable

profile.

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

Nice work, Xris. "find distasteful" is clearly not "do not practice these trades". One would assume then that without a symbiotic relationship with a human culture, the Dwarves did indeed practice this, it was just not one of their favorite tings to do.



Not bad. Strictly from a calorie per acre standpoint, whear is not the best, but Barley is great. Also is used in beer and ale, which it seems are two favorite Dwarven beverages



Prior to the coming of the gargun, Kiraz may have been having some outside pressure from the tribes of Peran for hunting space. But as the Equani seem to like to stay away from Kiraz IIRC, maybe some "displays" of technology or magic kept them from being too close.

I aslo thought I remember reading in canon where the Khuzdhul were out gathering to far because crops were bad IIRC? That would make it seem farming still provided a decent portion of their diet.



Well, the Khuzdhul could still produce a portion of their own food of course. Or mayb Robin's math was just not that good

Where do the calculations come from as to how much food the Khuzdhul import? Anyone know how many human/Khuzdhul households there are in Azadmere, and how many acres they have in the kingdom? I wonder how this would factor if the Khuzdhul average manor had the equivalent of a 1.25 Fief index?

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

While we are here exchanging quotes on the Khuzai - from "Venarive":


From Kethira 37:


Seems that Kuzjera uses the same symbiotic relationship with humans as Azadmere.



On to (Venarive again)...


Interestingly enough (did somebody say "hobbits" here?), these are in contact with the "Nablugi", some (24000) tribal "small folks" in the region, lets call em halflings. There are also contacts with the Ulmerian League - though food imports by these seem not practicable.

Larhakul and Merdain are not part of the "northwestern Venarive" module, alas.

I would also point out that mash waste from beer production is also used in mushroom farming...

However, my post today is really about the whole issue. While I love the speculations, the paucity of detail in official material is actually a good thing (as I see it). It allows the individual GM to tailor the situation to their own needs, and one GM's endangered dwarven kingdom due to food imports is another's opportunity for underground mushroom farms and exotic subterranean aquaculture practices.

The most probable, and mundane, reasons for the situation in all the dwarven nations that Xris has found described in canon is most likely to be a lack of significant analysis and consideration on the part of the various authors (starting with Robin). But that doesn't mean we should fill in all the gaps. A straightjacket we do not want to make. In many respects, HârnWorld may already be too detailed, especially when you take fanon into account.

I especially want to make that point for all our newer forum members...although I will rush to add that I'm NOT discouraging development of fanon in any way! We speculate here simply for the joy of doing so, and perhaps stimulating the thoughts of others along lines they may not have considered, not to fill in the holes with concrete detail, because that really would be an exercise in futility.

If you want Azadmere to have the capability to field a Khuzan army of 2,000 well-fed plate-coated heavy foot soldiers with mithril axes, or a ragged starved force of several hundred dwarves armoured in nothing better brigandine and riding donkeys, then either should be possible to you.

After all, it's YOUR p-Hârn!

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

...and all that OT because of one simple question:


In my P-Hârn the Khúzai are well-nourished.

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everybodyTHINKShimselfSOwellSUPPLIEDwithCOMMONsenseTHATevenTHOSEmostDIFFICULTto PLEASEneverDESIREmoreOFitTHANtheyALREADYhave. RENEdescartes.

The fascinating issue with Hârn and Kelestia is that most of it makes sense. If you start to look for issues like these in other fantasy-worlds you would be simply overwhelmed by possible starting points.

The few issues that remain questionable more often then not can be covered by a sensible approach, rather then the "its fantasy, forget about reason" most other worlds need more sooner then later.

Naturally each P-Harn is different, and anybody can transform the world into that he wants.

For the feeding of Azadmere - its good to see that they COULD feed themself when they use the resources near the city. With food imports available its also sensible that they do not squeeze out any calory from gathering, hunting and fishing. If you can get a better deal via trade you rather produce stuff for sale then go out gathering berries, I assume. This way Azadmere currently can be dependent on imports, and if cut off will certainly have a rough time reestablishing all the food sources (especially those in Gargun infested areas) they previously needed.

Oh yes, it is these "holes" that make live interesting.


Obviously this explanation is almost certainly correct. But - it is also a boring explanation!



Indeed, it's for the fun. In fact this is my favorite variant of sporting, some kind of brain-jogging.

We here just do, what historians and archaeologists practice all the time: Looking at the available "sources", finding consistencies and inconsistencies, and making up some plausible theories about what all this may mean.
I do not think, that we will finally find out "the truth" (neither that there actually is something like that at all - because other than real history, this one is completely made up), but probably just something I could live with. And if someone makes a fanon publication about all this, it's fine to me. As I am used to decide whether I adopt a historian's or scientist's theory about our real world, I take the freedom to do the very same regarding everything regarding Kethira. There are even some "canonic facts" that I gracefully ignore, because they are nonsense or I just don't like them or their implications. (Yes, just call me an heretic! )

Also, discussions (or better: examinations ) like this help keeping the quality of canon and fanon publications on the considerably high level we adhere.

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Ich mag den kleinen blauen Elephanten!

I agree here. Something that is somewhat plausible, without having to put in things like "The Khuzdhul raise a special form of cow that reproduces in litters like pigs and eat very little, though they grow to the size of modern cows"

Not that anyone proposed that, just as an example. The more you stay with plausible explanations that don't change physical laws the better. I know there is magic on Harn, and could influence certain things, but don't want to see every mundane issue that seems to not make sense expalined that way. I'd rather here "OK, Robin and authors did not analyze it enough" as opposed to "Gravity does not exist in this valley due to magic".



Yep, me too!

Although some of my heretical beliefs that the population of Harn should be much larger have been at least tempered by the idea that Harn has more of a 14th-15th century English climate than a 12th century one, and combined with the lack of a 3 field rotation system makes some sense at least that Harn's population is low, though I still think it's TOO low, even with these things thrown in

Though I still think that a fief index that is rather high compared to the rest of Harn could help cover some of the shortage of food, and with the Khuzdhul being the master-techs of Hanr this would make sense I would think.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....