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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:19 am 
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PK wrote:
Does anybody know of any equivalent gold/silver/whatever rushes from medieval Europe? Is there enough freemen around to really support such a rush?

I am inclining to think efforts to tap such a resource would be more of a top-down effort as the earl/sheriff/king scrambles to improve their own finances.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10129

In Germany, in the Kingdom of Otto, in 938, a German nobleman was riding his horse, Ramelus. The nobleman was hunting near the town of Goslar in the Harz Mountains. He tied the reins to a tree when he dismounted to hunt. Ramelus was impatient and pawed the earth. When the nobleman returned, he saw metals gleaming in the horse's little excavation. Miners realized that the horse had uncovered a vein of silver, lead, and copper. This mine was named Rammelsberg, after the horse Ramelus.
Rammelsberg became the most important source of silver, lead and copper in central Europe. Over a thousand years later, it still produces wealth. Like the gold rush in the United States, it inspired German expansion to the east, to search for more mi neral deposits. It also trained miners in the skills lost to the Dark Ages, in mining and prospecting.

During the Middle Ages, many common people belonged to the land and to the lord of the land. They were not free to leave. However, the lords began to need money to buy luxuries from the Near East and China such as silk. These new ideas and luxuries c ame from European contact with Moslems during the Crusades. From the First Crusade in 1096, kings and princes needed money for luxuries and to pay for more armies to wage more Crusades. They allowed adventurous serfs their freedom to look for ore deposi ts. A freed serf who found a deposit could mark the boundaries of the deposit with piles of stone. Then he could apply to the lord who owned the land for permission to mine the deposit. The lord, in return, was granted tribute or a royalty. This pract ice is very similar to modern claim staking on public land. Medieval miners became respected craftsmen, not serfs.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:23 pm 
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All this talk of Ancient dwarven roads?

Lothrim died about 600 years ago.
Assuming the Gargun who survived began to spread, with tribes and civilized lands, and canabalism by the Gargun, these trails may have been in use by the dwarves a 100-200 years ago.
Azadmere is currently beset by Gargun, I don't recall how long that has gone on. There may not be men alive to remember but old maps, books, and the occasional dwarf would recall the trails easily enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:01 am 
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If you were to assume that there was a route from Zerhun that went to Fana using the upper part of the Silver Way (assessable using the collapsed bridge that Kerry Mould mentioned above) and then to the (hypothetical) Selene gate (which possibly could be) the Gargun colony off of the (proposed) ancient Selene Way; you could easily make the case that traffic ceased when Fana fell to the Gargun.

Anybody remember which year that was? :?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:04 pm 
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GronkGroks wrote:
If you were to assume that there was a route from Zerhun that went to Fana using the upper part of the Silver Way (assessable using the collapsed bridge that Kerry Mould mentioned above) and then to the (hypothetical) Selene gate (which possibly could be) the Gargun colony off of the (proposed) ancient Selene Way; you could easily make the case that traffic ceased when Fana fell to the Gargun.

Anybody remember which year that was? :?

Fana was taken by the gargun in 135TR. According to the Fana article in Nasty, Brutish, and Short, the Khuzan clan Dyrak has attempted to retake the mine many times, "on average, about four times a century," most recently in 689.
Moving a substantial force of Khuzdul, mercenaries, supplies, etc., to Fana every 25 years or so would require that some trailblazing be done, which could be sufficient to keep that part of the path from being totally overgrown.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:04 am 
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If anyone is interested a similar situation of prospectors wandering into Khuzan lands exists in canon:

The, KHUZDUL
"...The independent northmen grew weary of Khuzan paternalism, and their expanding population forced them to seek new lands. Between 300-400 TR, many Ivinian settlements such as Aldeby, Derenborg, and Gildin were founded on the fringes of Kuzjera, domain of the Khuzdul. Alarmed by this, and wary of Ivinian prospectors who wandered deep into their lands, the dwarves abandoned their outposts in Kuzjera in 428 TR, sealed the gates of their two cities, and largely receded into Ivinian legend. The precise location of the dwarven cities are now forgotten by most Ivinians, although tales of "darksome citadels in Kuzjera" are not uncommon...." (KHUZDUL, The, Index-Ivinia)

KUZJERA (L6+)
"A forested, hilly, and swampy region of southeastern Ivae. This wasteland is avoided by most humans other than the Yarili (qv). Kuzjera contains the two Khuzan cities of Kondasgel (qv) and Harhakeim (qv). The Yarili in the region trade foodstuffs and hides for dwarven products. Kuzjera is a refuge for exotic creatures, notably the Ilme (qv)." (KUZJERA, Index-Ivinia)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:50 am 
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styrotdarquan wrote:
All this talk of Ancient dwarven roads?

Lothrim died about 600 years ago.
Assuming the Gargun who survived began to spread, with tribes and civilized lands, and canabalism by the Gargun, these trails may have been in use by the dwarves a 100-200 years ago.
Azadmere is currently beset by Gargun, I don't recall how long that has gone on. There may not be men alive to remember but old maps, books, and the occasional dwarf would recall the trails easily enough.


IIRC & IMHO, the gargun had mostly taken over their present ranges at the end of the 2nd century TR. In the case of Vemionshire, Fana was taken by the gargun in 135 TR. That would mean effectively cutting any direct roads between Vemionshire and Azadmere. 585 years ago. Apart from a stray elf, no-one from that time is alive, and for the men at least such a time has in all probability become a time of legends and myths.

bbailey wrote:
Fana was taken by the gargun in 135TR. According to the Fana article in Nasty, Brutish, and Short, the Khuzan clan Dyrak has attempted to retake the mine many times, "on average, about four times a century," most recently in 689.
Moving a substantial force of Khuzdul, mercenaries, supplies, etc., to Fana every 25 years or so would require that some trailblazing be done, which could be sufficient to keep that part of the path from being totally overgrown.


Why would the Khuzdul and any Mannish mercenaries use a route different from the Silver Way? Considering a military endeavour, they need a base of operations. Zerhun lies closest. Any operation from Vemionshire (using e.g. the "Selene Way") must first fight through days of gargun wilderness. They will be meeting gargun from Felgoth, and losing any men and/or provisions (animals) for those gargun would mean having less men & provisions at Fana.

Makes no sense to me. :)

YHWV.

-ile


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:05 am 
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If the proposition is that the proposed "Selene Way" went thru Fana, then it can be safely assumed that major traffic would of been halted some 600 years ago (approximately two Khuzdul lifetimes). The Dwarves may still remember it (much as we remember the Oregon Trail in the USA) and vestiges of it would probably still remain.

The humans would only retain knowledge of it through stories, myths and legends. Some portions may still be used intermittantly, but none in living memory have travelled it's length. Only the rangers may have some inkling of the route it once traversed and where it once lead to, even they have no first hand knowledge of it's path.

And for your intrepid party of PCs? Perhaps some Save K'nor temple or a Shek Pvar chantry may contain an ancient map inside a leather case on the bottom of some pile of dusty tomes. Forgotten by all (except the master of the library) until "accidentally" rediscovered.

From such things are adventures made.... 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:21 pm 
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Quote:
And for your intrepid party of PCs? Perhaps some Save K'nor temple or a Shek Pvar chantry may contain an ancient map inside a leather case on the bottom of some pile of dusty tomes. Forgotten by all (except the master of the library) until "accidentally" rediscovered.


Double shush! My players are reading!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:34 am 
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Dogberry wrote:
Also, in recent canon it is mentioned that possession of gold is actually illegal.

Where is this mentioned? Why is it illegal? Does the prohibition include jewelry?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:48 am 
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J. Vilkka wrote:
Dogberry wrote:
Also, in recent canon it is mentioned that possession of gold is actually illegal.

Where is this mentioned? Why is it illegal? Does the prohibition include jewelry?

I can guess that Dogberry means the following:
GARDIREN 8 wrote:
Ownership of gold in any amount above £10 is a monopoly of the crown with one exception - Earls of Neph ahve the right to hold unlimited Khuzan crowns, but in exchange must make all feudal payments to the crown in gold.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Thanks, Fenhorn!

It would be nice to have that kind of information in some more general book on Harn... Such as HarnPlayer, HarnManor, HM3, HMG GM's Edition... (I haven't had the time to read Gardiren, or most other settings, yet.)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:44 am 
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J. Vilkka wrote:
Thanks, Fenhorn!

It would be nice to have that kind of information in some more general book on Harn... Such as HarnPlayer, HarnManor, HM3, HMG GM's Edition... (I haven't had the time to read Gardiren, or most other settings, yet.)

Except that this particular info is (IMO) one of the very few "silly ideas" that Hârn could do without, ranking up there with the impossible food importation dependance of Azadmere and the unenforceable Melderyni embargo.

Roland


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:57 am 
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Furthermore, it's a recent silly idea, and IMO the old, tried-and-true silly ideas should here take precedence.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:04 am 
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I don't think the "silly ideas" are all that bad in IMHO. The concepts are valid. The execution may leave a little bit to be desired though.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Hello,

the questions concerning the gold mines and trails leading to them are answered in the HQ article "Tontury Lake".

According to that article, the gold mines are placer deposits currently under prospection by the Miners' Guild, which finances expeditions to search for the mother lode.

Regards

Xris
---
Ilkka Leskelä wrote:
Vemionshire, especially its trails, has been a topic of some arguments lately, not the least because of me. :)

[...]

Map 2
Attachment:
Vemionshire Trails ca. 2005.jpg


This map adds the trails on the new CGI maps. The trails in eastern Vemionshire (Valdrun Forest) have been highlighted in orange. In addition, the two gold mines on the Sorkin foothills are marked on the map.

For me, the reason for these new trails and the gold mines is totally obscure. Why should they exist? Who has made the trails? Who mines the gold? With the long distances and the ever-present possibility of a nocturnal attack of 20–80 man-eaters, who takes care of the logistics and security (food, men, shipments of gold) of this enterprise? At what cost? If the gold mines produce enough gold for the enterprise to pay out, what amounts of gold are entering the Kaldor market, and what magnitude of inflation is the result?

There is one solution I can imagine: the Felgoth gargun run the gold mines.

In this scenario, the trails connecting Minarsas and Felgoth are actually trade routes. Minarsas & the rest of Vemionshire buy gold from the Felgoth gargun, and this trade is lucrative enough for a permanent trade route akin to the Silver Way to be cleared. Gold ingots travel neatly in small pouches, but the trade goods used in buying the gold from the gargun need good roads – because the gargun prefer animals for food. Perhaps the famous Vemionshire sheep, after their best wool-production years are past, are herded en masse into the Sorkin foothills and fed to the gargun.

Naturally, the Felgoth gold trade is a serious threat for the Azadmere trade. As Kaldorians have found a way to 1) obtain gold, and 2) to live in tolerable peace with the gargun, the hazards of the Silver Way seem more and more futile. And so it was that the gargun, at last, and through trade rather than pillage, brought doom to Azadmere…

YHWV. Have fun. :)

-ile

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:56 am 
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[quote="CASTLEMIKE"]
In Germany, in the Kingdom of Otto, in 938, a German nobleman was riding his horse, Ramelus. The nobleman was hunting near the town of Goslar in the Harz Mountains. He tied the reins to a tree when he dismounted to hunt. Ramelus was impatient and pawed the earth. When the nobleman returned, he saw metals gleaming in the horse's little excavation. Miners realized that the horse had uncovered a vein of silver, lead, and copper. This mine was named Rammelsberg, after the horse Ramelus.
Rammelsberg became the most important source of silver, lead and copper in central Europe. Over a thousand years later, it still produces wealth. Like the gold rush in the United States, it inspired German expansion to the east, to search for more mi neral deposits. It also trained miners in the skills lost to the Dark Ages, in mining and prospecting.
[/quote]

For the record that Ramelus part is a myth. The mine was in use before long before Otto's reign. And the active mine was closed 1970-something. It's a museum today.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:12 am 
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Could it be possible that the gold mines on the map are old Khuzdul mines. The Gargun having spent decades trying to take it have since developed a habit for staying away, the reason for why is now long forgotten to the Gargun themselves, allowing the new human miners the opportunity to move in without fear of attack (at least near the mines)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:39 am 
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PK wrote:
Does anybody know of any equivalent gold/silver/whatever rushes from medieval Europe? Is there enough freemen around to really support such a rush?

I am inclining to think efforts to tap such a resource would be more of a top-down effort as the earl/sheriff/king scrambles to improve their own finances.


Interesting that one of the reasons noted for bank notes was a shortage of silver. It doesn't matter how much is in the ground if it is beyond the limits of current mining technology or to costly to remove.

Khuzhun are generally accounted superior miners than humans in canon so unless discovering a new vein most of that silver or gold is unreachable without finding a new vein or something like an earthquake and an underground stream or river bring those precious metals up to the surface slowly over time.

Since Harn uses Mercantyler notes one could can go either way based on history in a P-harn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining#Medieval_Europe

Mining as an industry underwent dramatic changes in medieval Europe. The mining industry in the early Middle Ages was mainly focused on the extraction of copper and iron. Other precious metals were also used mainly for gilding or coinage. Initially, many metals were obtained through open-pit mining, and ore was primarily extracted from shallow depths, rather than though the digging of deep mine shafts. Around the 14th century, the demand for weapons, armour, stirrups, and horseshoes greatly increased the demand for iron. Medieval knights for example were often laden with up to 100 pounds of plate or chain link armour in addition to swords, lances and other weapons.[8] The overwhelming dependency on iron for military purposes helped to spur increased iron production and extraction processes.

These new military applications coincided with a population explosion throughout Europe in the 11th-14th centuries which increased the demand for precious metals in order to fill a currency shortage.[9] The silver crisis of 1465 occurred when the mines had all reached depths at which the shafts could no longer be pumped dry with the available technology.[10] Although the increased use of bank notes and the use of credit during this period did decrease the dependence and value of precious metals, these forms of currency still remained vital to the story of mediaeval mining. Use of water power in the form of water mills was extensive; they were employed in crushing ore, raising ore from shafts and ventilating galleries by powering giant bellows. Black powder was first used in mining in Selmecbánya, Kingdom of Hungary in 1627

http://books.google.com/books?id=OC9rkk ... &q&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=tp5tbf ... &q&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=yPcIuJ ... sh&f=false

Irisi Flimsi wrote:
CASTLEMIKE wrote:
In Germany, in the Kingdom of Otto, in 938, a German nobleman was riding his horse, Ramelus. The nobleman was hunting near the town of Goslar in the Harz Mountains. He tied the reins to a tree when he dismounted to hunt. Ramelus was impatient and pawed the earth. When the nobleman returned, he saw metals gleaming in the horse's little excavation. Miners realized that the horse had uncovered a vein of silver, lead, and copper. This mine was named Rammelsberg, after the horse Ramelus.
Rammelsberg became the most important source of silver, lead and copper in central Europe. Over a thousand years later, it still produces wealth. Like the gold rush in the United States, it inspired German expansion to the east, to search for more mi neral deposits. It also trained miners in the skills lost to the Dark Ages, in mining and prospecting.


For the record that Ramelus part is a myth. The mine was in use before long before Otto's reign. And the active mine was closed 1970-something. It's a museum today.


Possibly mostly depends of the perspective since most mines played out within a century.

If the old mine was played out and depleted or nearly depleted or at the limits of technology.

Finding a new workable mother lode vein after decades or centuries would constitute a discovery IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:19 am 
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CASTLEMIKE1 wrote:
Khuzhun are generally accounted superior miners than humans in canon so unless discovering a new vein most of that silver or gold is unreachable without finding a new vein or something like an earthquake and an underground stream or river bring those precious metals up to the surface slowly over time.


Not necessarily. A lode may not be economically competitive for the Khuzan, but still be profitable within the human economy. This is rather normal. In almost every extractive industry today, small low-overhead operations that are willing to tolerate lower profit margins work the deposits that aren't worth the big companies' time. Even reopening "played-out" mines or fields.

Quote:
Quote:
For the record that Ramelus part is a myth. The mine was in use before long before Otto's reign. And the active mine was closed 1970-something. It's a museum today.


Possibly mostly depends of the perspective since most mines played out within a century.

If the old mine was played out and depleted or nearly depleted or at the limits of technology.

Finding a new workable mother lode vein after decades or centuries would constitute a discovery IMO.


You must be new to this whole history-thing. Any story that ends with the mine/city/kingdom/wife being named for the horse is a myth, guaranteed. Any story in which the horse is the hero - probably also a myth. In general, you can't go too far wrong if you assume that all Medieval history was written by horses to inspire young horses.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:54 am 
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CASTLEMIKE1 wrote:
Irisi Flimsi wrote:
CASTLEMIKE wrote:
In Germany, in the Kingdom of Otto, in 938, a German nobleman was riding his horse, Ramelus. The nobleman was hunting near the town of Goslar in the Harz Mountains. He tied the reins to a tree when he dismounted to hunt. Ramelus was impatient and pawed the earth. When the nobleman returned, he saw metals gleaming in the horse's little excavation. Miners realized that the horse had uncovered a vein of silver, lead, and copper. This mine was named Rammelsberg, after the horse Ramelus.
Rammelsberg became the most important source of silver, lead and copper in central Europe. Over a thousand years later, it still produces wealth. Like the gold rush in the United States, it inspired German expansion to the east, to search for more mi neral deposits. It also trained miners in the skills lost to the Dark Ages, in mining and prospecting.


For the record that Ramelus part is a myth. The mine was in use before long before Otto's reign. And the active mine was closed 1970-something. It's a museum today.


Possibly mostly depends of the perspective since most mines played out within a century.

If the old mine was played out and depleted or nearly depleted or at the limits of technology.

Finding a new workable mother lode vein after decades or centuries would constitute a discovery IMO.


The main Rammelsberg deposit ("Altes Lager") was not a vein, but a massive storey type deposit. That is the main reason for the long exploitation period ~2000 years (!). An outcrop reached the surface, so it was easy to mine in opencast style and could easily followed down when turning to deep mining became necessary. A second deposit ("Neues Lager") was discovered and exploitated in the 19th century.

The nice story on Ramelus - though quite old - is most probably a nice fiction. The church and roman king were deeply involved in the exploitation of the mine and development of the Harz mining region, and so the story is likely to be an instrument to foster further investments.

Similar kinds of legends are known for most ancient German mining districts.

However, if you ever get the chance to visit the Rammelsberg Museum, I'd strongly advise to do so. Rammelsberg is a most impressive mine. It was recently declared to be part of the UNESCO's World Cultural Heritage.

Xris

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:59 am 
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Hi,

there's no more need to speculate. If you want to go with "canon", just read the cited article. The mother lode is likely to be a Khuzan mine at the head of the river. But you'll also get nice insights into religious and secular politics: Pagaelin barbarians, Gargun, the Navean and Siem churches, the Kaldorian Miners' Guild are all involved in this game!

Regards

Xris

Exchook wrote:
Could it be possible that the gold mines on the map are old Khuzdul mines. The Gargun having spent decades trying to take it have since developed a habit for staying away, the reason for why is now long forgotten to the Gargun themselves, allowing the new human miners the opportunity to move in without fear of attack (at least near the mines)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:03 am 
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CASTLEMIKE1 wrote:
Irisi Flimsi wrote:
CASTLEMIKE wrote:
In Germany, in the Kingdom of Otto, in 938, a German nobleman was riding his horse, Ramelus. The nobleman was hunting near the town of Goslar in the Harz Mountains. He tied the reins to a tree when he dismounted to hunt. Ramelus was impatient and pawed the earth. When the nobleman returned, he saw metals gleaming in the horse's little excavation. Miners realized that the horse had uncovered a vein of silver, lead, and copper. This mine was named Rammelsberg, after the horse Ramelus.
Rammelsberg became the most important source of silver, lead and copper in central Europe. Over a thousand years later, it still produces wealth. Like the gold rush in the United States, it inspired German expansion to the east, to search for more mi neral deposits. It also trained miners in the skills lost to the Dark Ages, in mining and prospecting.


For the record that Ramelus part is a myth. The mine was in use before long before Otto's reign. And the active mine was closed 1970-something. It's a museum today.


Possibly mostly depends of the perspective since most mines played out within a century.
If the old mine was played out and depleted or nearly depleted or at the limits of technology.
Finding a new workable mother lode vein after decades or centuries would constitute a discovery IMO.


There is evidence that the mine was "played" in the 4th century. The story about the horse Ramelus (or knight Ramm) came about in the 13th century, if I recall correctly. Roughly 500 years after the "occurence". The mine was in (almost) continuous use since 970. The Ottonians cared more about mining the Rammelsberg than did their predecessors, but they did not initiate it. The period between 4th and 10th is currently open to speculation, evidence is hard to come by.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:01 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:59 am 
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Exchook wrote:
I believe you are speculating yourself when you state "that the mother lode is likely to be a Khuzan mine at the head of the river", when in fact the article states the river springs from Algon's Cave, this may be no Khuzan mine at all. There are few hard facts located within those few lines in the cited article.

I was more concerned with why the Gargun have left this area alone if it is in fact an old Khuzul mine.


The sidebar on Tontury Lake 6 does talk about Algon's Cave, its Khuzan origins, and current occupants.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:24 am 
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