Roland had posted on the much meandered Vemionshire Beleaguered post about some parts of Harn cannon that made little sense. Thought I would give my views on a few he stated as well as some of my own and see what else people have come across.


Ownership of gold in any amount above £10 is a monopoly of the crown with one exception - Earls of Neph have the right to hold unlimited Khuzan crowns, but in exchange must make all feudal payments to the crown in gold.
This one almost makes sense. I would disregard jewelry, but I think the intent here is to limit the nobles from building up too much of a bullion & Khuzan crown reserve to buy foreign mercenaries. Also makes large transactions more traceable - via letters of credit - so the king can see who is hiring a pile of mercenaries or trying to buy up all of a commodity. Enforcement is aided by the fact that there really isn't much of an internal supply in Kaldor. Sort of why the US doesn't print bills larger than $100.

impossible food importation dependance of Azadmere
I view it similarly to how it was handled by the Dwarven kingdom of Zarack in Gurps Fantasy. They don't need the foodstuffs, but grain (bread and beer) and wine are better than mushrooms. Modern analog would be chocolate, sugar, and coffee imports to the US. Makes the run past Fana worthwhile.

unenforceable Melderyni embargo
yeah, this never made sense. Maybe within the Melderyni kingdom itself, but Orbaal could care less, as could the western Harnic kingdoms. Maybe only enforceable on Chybisia.

Gargun population density
To me it never seemed like they were ecologically supportable in the numbers and manner they were presented. In my pHarn, the are omnivorous but strongly prefer meat. Also, they need only about a quarter of the calories of a man (handwave away as to why - efficient biology, magic, etc). I run my campaign in GURPS so I give them by default Cast Iron Stomach and Reduced Consumption 2.

Potatos
Not going there.

I think Robin tried to make a world to get rid of many of the liberties taken by RPG's of the time. Everyone rode a horse, had plate armour, used a longbow, bastard sword and shield, etc. etc.

Of course IMO he went to far the other way, taking it past the point of feudal europe in the other direction.

Here are a few things I'll add -

1) Restriction to wear mail or plate limited to the nobility. The restriction should be based on one's ability to purchase these items, and even with a strict rule like the English Assizes, those with X amount of property not only could wear mail but were expected to.

2) Restriction of Chivalric weapons - same as the above, Yoeman and men at arms will be using the best weapons they can afford, a wealthy yeoman that wears mail will also have a true sword if he desires. And Battleaxes as chivalric weapons? These were not uncommonly used by levied foot. A battleaxe on horseback makes little sense.

3) Only nobles may ride a horse - this kills any idea of non-noble mounted troops, who at worst should function as scouts.

4) A levy that takes 1 man from every household. I'm not sure if canon actually implies this is ever used or if it is more theoretical, but to do so would make no sense in any true war, not talking about the gargun swarm that may hit a manor where everyone is "drafted".

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Laws restricting 'chivalric' weapons and the use of riding horses sound to me like a nobility that's trying hard to distinguish itself from uppity, well-to-do common folk. Are there sumptuary laws as well?

Ditto to the OP and Turin although I keep the weapons as noted in Harn Player because of the Mangai influence without parallel in our world history. I like Kaldor because it is well developed in fanon and canon providing a good foundation to build on or ignore and situated between interesting kingdoms and lots of barbarians. Some of what I change:

Not enough coinage on Harn at 1,000,000 d or so. The Earl's Progress fanon and his annual tribute for the king is a good example. With Hoarding over 20,000,000 d which changes hands infrequently marriage dowries, clan emergencies, major guild purchases (scaling based on social rank and profession).

"Global" International Mangai Scope despite being limited by communication and travel limitations (particularly speed). More primary, secondary and tertiary guild privilege interaction based on basic apprenticeship skills along with Guild Association. Especially when noting the effect simply changing a Hundred like the Miller's Guild fanon has on a career. More daughters are ranked guild journeymen without the onus of being apprenticed outside the family like a son. To many cases of daughters marrying and the valuable franchise passing to the husband. Her future inheritance and dowry.

Local Journeymen pay their guild dues at the local Mangai Hundred Chapter. Itinerant Masters do the same (Preferred by the local Masters) or at the closest largest settlement if they do a lot of traveling. Logged and recorded. Non paying guilds men are hassled and sanctioned if in arrears for an extended period.

Awful lot of Barbarians who really only seem to bother merchant caravans despite notes that they raid so they have treaties with the surrounding kingdoms to explain the status quo except for the poor Solari and raiding is mostly small groups of malcontents and hot heads among the barbarians and the civilized folk. Many Barbarian Shaman who regularly interact with civilized folk are GoAL Satia Mavari who pay annual dues or their association fee similar to Chippies and Cargo Masters at their local hundred.

Physician's Guild is so loosely enforced it seems like one could just claim membership and start paying dues with any decent healing skill ability or a small gift or bribe for credentials from an itinerant Master.

Herald's Guild and the Clan coat of arms costing 5,000 d when any knight can make a knight and most do not have access to that kind of coin especially when being supported as a household knight in kind.

IMO just an artificial game mechanic to keep other PCs from becoming knights like the high cost of horse maintenance. There should be annual feudal taxes and guild fees on Coats of Arms. I address with Personal family Coat of Arms at 3L - 5L for a knight and his immediate family and making the Clan Coat of Arms heritable like the title of an Earl or Baron the clan head does not have to be a knight and their children will be gentle born. Nice dowry for a daughter.

More canon cross pollination of serf, free and gentle clans at the Manor level across kingdoms.

Tournament knight circuit does not appear to be a viable career for supporting a PC knight based on the Tournament article.

Shek Pvar Code would not survive political intrigues and a few ambitious charismatic leaders or like minded members over time because it is to easily abused as described IMO.

Gray Mage path as written, it is best to just remain a Satia Mavari and never return to the chantry until after acquiring Gray Mage status.

Easiest with a copy of The Genin Concordance (Which is available for sale at 360 d directly from Cherafir GoAL with no prohibition on guild rank (The ML does not make sense as written unless each discipline is consider a specialization of Pvarism and a Copy of On Learning The Art from Tomes and Scrolls.

Finding a journal or purchasing from another party or independent Satia Mavari or Shenava is a legitimate way to acquire knowledge of other disciplines. Stealing a journal from another Satia Mavari seems to be fair game. Just not allowed to purchase from a chantry member without chantry master approval

The White Hand secret organization going around killing people including guild members and messing with the minds of people everywhere for centuries. Another game mechanic to police PC Shek Pvar abuse in game because they are sure having trouble with Dulye being at large for decades. It's a recognized GoAL Fighting Legion with church and kingdom affiliations enforcing GoAL abuses since membership is not required of independent Shek Pvar according to canon.

"Secret" Council of Eleven membership is interesting particularly since it is written as being pro bono which is a poor base for that model of power over time and conducting regular meetings with the king of a feudal kingdom when it should have a public facade of Royal Counsel to the king.

Psionics are optional but no one develops psionic abilities until after character creation not even GoAL which is really odd when you consider it is cited as possessing a working talent one of the easiest methods of joining and the Savoryans and their canon spell after 5 - 7 years or more of apprenticeship depending on the edition.

IMO all franchises should be fee simple regarding the land and building(s) on it otherwise it is to easily abused in a feudal setting where gentle folk have inherently more rights and legal standing in society and legal courts.

Where is that canon storm spell capable of wrecking a fleet of ships?

Why didn't they use it to prevent the Rape of Thay which is a significant event that should have been foreseen by their spies and Savoryans and cost hundreds of lives?

Kaldor does possess a small eastern and southern manorial sea port each with a single pier. Uncommon for a single ship to be in port and rarely two ships in port.

Trobridge state of affairs to much money at stake and detrimentally affecting trade for to long a period of time. Noron as described because he and his sons could be put down based on the cost of their canon tolls over way to long of a period so I make him a Baron with a few manors more reasonable tolls and a beneficiary of the Barbarian treaty with the Taelda. If a marauding dragon can be put down by adventurers or a kingdom so can a powerful bandit lord and his sons.

Glebe land is simple fee franchise with a stipulated purchase value should the manor lord wish to evict (very rare). Most are Priests but ordination as a Priest is not required. Generally the remainder are ranked Deacons of at least one church although some retain the services of a Deacon or Priest to conduct low mass. Many popular or favorite Laranian younger sons of a Clan head or his wife are Deacons of Larani and or Peoni on a Glebe enjoying the less structured life outside of a temple or abbey.

Generally owned and managed by the local priest not the church and heritable. Larger Glebes are usually generational clan affairs but occasionally purchased. Non Peonian Priestly Glebes are usually also Peonian Deacons [Pantheon Dualism] and capable of performing a low mass and other services for the manor laity.

Church of Larnai is celibate for Priests but Not Deacons (Lesser Vows) or High Clergy (Most Clan heads do not want their gentle younger sons, daughters, cousins.... siring commoner clan members they are unable to support) and men or women can acquire the church of Peoni or Save Knor skill set since not all are suited for martial careers in the church of Larani for kingdoms like Kaldor. Unfortunately the martial path skill set is the primary advancement path in the church (Male bias). Attaining the rank of High Priest grants gentle status to a commoner. Any High Priest with the funds may purchase their own Clan Coat of Arms which will confer gentle status to any legal or legally acknowledged bastards. Many are married.

The church of Peoni the mother nature goddess is not celibate although it is mostly among the Glebes in some ways the more worldly material path of the church. Many Glebes are distant commoner relations (second to fourth cousins) of their or a neighboring manor lord.

Church (Large Cult) of Siem somewhat more developed with no real hierarchy or central authority and the odd small temple or church at major cities like Cherafir and Tashal on par with some of the temples of Sarajin. More wandering mendicants at large (some affiliated with the GoAL) like the Church of Peoni with the occasional bonded manorial priest and generally among the Top Four Priestly Glebes depending on the kingdom. For Kaldor Peoni (70%), Larani (15%), Ilver (10%) and Siem (5%). For Melderyn Peoni (60%), Save Knor (25%), Larani (10%) and Siem (5%).

Church of Siem has the Sjari spell comparable to the Tongues spell. Church of Save Knor has the Pvarii spell very similar to Sjari limited to I and II spells without specialization in Divination and Healing which expands limits to III and IV spells.

Most GoAL Alchemists and Astrologers use Pvarji. Pvarji may be opened by other Shek Pvar at creation which addresses many of the Gray Mage issues.

Psionics
I take the attitude that pretty much the rest of the publications do - ignore them completely. When they do come into a story (only time for us was the young girl when we did the Byford-feron adventure) I substitute untrained magical ability. With the canon stated prevalence I wonder why no detail noble description ever is psionic.

Dead of Winter had one priest with a working psionic ability although I was surprised Evael did not list any for most of the elves with high auras.

Shek-Pvar
This one is sticky. I understand the idea is to keep mages from seizing political & economic power. Without some sort of control you would not have recognizable societies or economies that resemble our medieval history. But the enforcement and white hand seem too much like a unrealistic conspiracy theory. If they were really that powerful they would have done for the (forget her name) former CoE member fomenting trouble with the Gargun. In other words, the mechanisms that would keep a player from becoming a threat as a shek pvar also should prevent any other shek pvar from becoming a threat themselves.

I can't say that I've ever come up with a good solution. In our games, the Shek-Pvar characters were persecuted ("burn her- she turned me into a newt!") whenever they were suspected, which helped. But we never held together a game long enough for them to get really powerful. And it was always the subtle magic (long distance communication, spying, mind reading) which was less likely to be discovered that had the biggest effect on the gameworld.

edit: thinking about this more, doesn't the CoE basically violate a core tenent of the Pvaric code (putting yourself above mundanes)?

It is posiable the storm wasn't a spell. It could be a Earthmaster artifact. It is likely that if it is a spell it was much smaller and intended for the fleet but CF misfire caused a regional event.

In any case it would be kept locked up. They haven't used it since and with good reason.

What makes you think the Rape of Thay wasn't forseen?

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

That's a silly question. The Council of Eleven is a royal advisory body where the mages haven't got any special elevated status compared to the other members. Hence they're not 'above' the kvikir seating on the council.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Or even that about half the members aren't even mages.

But IMC the CoE does interfere with the lives of others - extensively. The CoE is a secret group but as effective leaders they are largely immune to laws others are expected to follow.

Congress (etc) always exempt themselves from the laws others are expected to follow.

The laws of the Shek-P'var keep others in line. If you were in charge orcastrating a secret council with overriding goals you wouldn't want the other mages running around unrestrictedly meddling in anything they wished would you?

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Lack of Action. The Ounce of Prevention is worth a pound of cure philosophy.

No plausible credible action was taken by the supposedly enlightened ruler who should possess the resources to prevent major loss of life and destruction of property in his kingdom which is "inferred" did occur during the second invasion. [Perhaps you treat it like our Pearl Harbor where it is rumored the attack was allowed to occur to get the public (Your GoAL) on board to enter the fray].

Melderyn mages, CoE and the White Hand are vastly overrated in many P-Harns IMO, if they were unable to thwart the first invasion much less the second invasion being the result of something like the fanon Godstone explanation or a fortuitous natural storm and not the Mages of Melderyn.

Silly ideas - Castlemike already said a fair amount about it, but I'll second it.

The omnipotent guilds

I'd like to see them limited to urban areas, which would make more sense and work better in the economic system.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I go more the opposite direction, and have psionics being more common in my corner of Melderyn than Shek P'var magic. I also give all elves some psionic ability. When designing any fantasy campaign, I always include both types of magic, but typically have only one being in use by the players and important npcs. I generally prefer a psionic/Deryni feel to magic in any campaign, but will go with whatever the rest of the group want to use.

I was under the impression the Earl of Nurisel was psionic, but maybe that's just a long-standing change in my pHarn. While few, if any, canon nobles are psionic, there's also very few that are Shek P'var, and there's no mention of any church leaders doing rituals and calling down miracles. I don't think it's a lack of nobles with magical power, but a near lack of anyone important with magical power in the canon literature.

Where is this one stated? Because it conflicts with all the many mentions of mounted non-noble troops (mainly light horse), like the light horse yeomen in HârnManor.

It's stated nowhere and only comes from Turin's partial and/or disingenuous reading of canon. Only nobles may ride destriers. Not all horses are destriers.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

IDK if "hundreds" died: Thay locked up and everyone safe inside




Reading the above seems to imply Hardin's Earl delayed sending help to Thay in 707 for an attack that never arrived because the fleet was decimated by a storm. Perhaps his intention to delay caused Melderyn to resort to a much more obvious use of magic to stop the Dragon fleet?

Or it could be misstating the dates. Delaying to send aid to Thay in the 705 Rape of Thay. Though Thay's defenses were solid and the population safe inside sending prompt aid to Thay may have forced the northerners to leave months sooner. Prompt presceient aid from Hardin could have staved off the whole attack. Prompt aid from Hardin after hearing of the seige would have lessened the damage those caught outside town suffered. Aid from Hardin was long delayed if at all and yet Thay was secure despite lack of help.

The best prescient aid story though has to do with the Aleastian Oddessy. Aleath was beseiged for years by Morgatians of the Balshan Jihad and the day before Aleath fell several ships from Melderyn arrive and sail them away to safety (establishing the new city of Thay). I believe Genin was involved.

The Thayian's have good reason to be thankful and are pretty convinced of their favored and charmed state of favor.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Why does the Aleathian Odyssey seem prescient? It seems more like, "After the population was depleted and the defenders realized that there would be no further aid from Melderyn, their morale broke and the siege was lost."

The Rape of Thay was just a thorough cock-up, and I am positive that they cooked up the whole, "We created that storm" story up about the Cape Renda disaster after the fact.

I really don't understand why anyone ascribes such incredible power to the CoE and mages in general. Would you really trust the administration of your country to, say, its Noble prize-winning scientists?

But, everyone gets their own pHarn. I suppose the idea of a world where leaders are super-humanly competent probably appeals to a lot of people. I suppose too much verisimilitude would be too depressing for play.

As Feanor correctly recalls, the mage Genin was involved, being within the walls of Thay at that time, with his actions probably a major factor in allowing the defenders to hold out long enough for part of the population to be rescued.

Ha! IMPH Sarajin sent that gale, he is after all master of the northern winds. The omens before the raid were inauspicious, but its leaders foolishly disregarded Sarajin's warnings and went on to incur his displeasure. Afterwards the survivors rather than recognise their error put the blame for the whole catastrophe on the evil magics of the wizard's island, and Melderyn failed to utter a formal denial.

That's assuming they would want the job in the first place. But why not? Could it be much worse? We get the leaders we deserve, presumably.

Enlightenment apparently doesn't totally prevent occasional blunders, as in Gandalf failing to recognise the One Ring for several decades, or Melderyn failing to prevent the Rape of Thay, or the Shek-Pvar lettting Lothrim build himself an empire, etc.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Well of course, depending on p-Harn, magic may not even exist - and thus Genin got his reputation from being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to seem incredibly precient.


Melderyn does enjoy a fantasticly charmed existance. The longest standing kingdom on Harn. During the Migration Wars only Melderyn was immune to war. It peacefully assimilated every incoming migration. It arguably has the most enlightened laws of any of the human kingdoms, controls most communication (and trade) to and from Harn. The Rape of Thay is possibly the most negative occurance ever to befall Melderyn and the consequences of that were limited.

OTOH even if magic does exist Melderyn's enlightened leadership is hardly faultless. They were unable to stop the Rape of Thay and the 707 storm that stoppped the reoccurance caused possibly more damage than the invading fleet ever could have. The Solori Cusades are one of the worst atrocities on Harn and for attrocities - well Lothrim came thru Melderyn...

Overall though Melderyn does seem to have benefited. Even discounting for the negative effects of 707 the Orbaalese believe in their power so they are likely to turn their attention elsewhere.

One could look at Melderyn as either having an excellent PR department, all-powerful but restrained or anywhere in between.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I'd like to address the question of control of the Shek-P'var, the CoE, White Hand. And this is kind of wrapped up in the question about the Cape Renda disaster too. This is my take on things, and how I've decided things ACTUALLY are. Just thought I'd throw in that disclaimer first.

The vast majority of Shek-P'var are like the secluded monks of our own history; where the monks tucked themselves away in seclusion to study the Bible so as to better understand the nature of God, and thus gain enlightenment and earn a special place in the hereafter. Shek-P'var withdraw from society at large to study the philosophical and escoteric material about the Cosmic All so as to better understand its nature, and thus hopefully learn how to gain enlightenment and learn how to take themselves to a higher plane of consciousness.

There's a one-to-one correlation here:

• nature of God | nature of the Cosmic All
• gain enlightenment | gain enlightenment
• earn special place in heaven | move to a higher plane of existence

Oh, and the Colleges of the Shek-P'var really correspond well with the Orders of the Church; Fyvrian vs. Fransciscans, Peleahns vs. Dominicans, etc.

So in that respect, the White Hand are more like Jesuits; they are the enforcers of the GoAL. Where there is some direction needed, they are the ones to administer it. It's not needed often; how many rogue mages have there been in the last thousand years of history that we know about? Two, maybe? Of course, I don't think these are the only ones, simply the most "famous". Ones that surface into history because the White Hand dropped the ball, or were fundamentally split, or whatever.

Now on to the Council of Eleven; who are they like from our own history? Well, they could be just like any other monarch's advisory board, although the fact that the king himself is an equal member is a bit unusual. When Robin and I discussed this many years ago, he did tell me what he had in mind, but he also said it was written in such a way that the reader could interpret it their way, from secretive group bent on global (or at least Harnic) domination a la the Illuminati, or simply nothing more than the most learned people in Melderyn whose purpose is to guide Melderyni foreign policy. They're just more sophisticated than other kingdoms. Really, it's up to the individual. My personal take is that it's a little bit of both, plus more from in between those extremes.

Anyway, this brings us to Cape Renda...a storm which just happened to blow up out of nowhere and destroy a fleet of invaders bound for Thay, and possibly the precursor to a permanent Ivinian presence on the eastern coast of Harn. Wouldn't you think the CoE would marshall their forces and get the weather mages out to whip up the storm if they learned a bit late that the fleet was on its way? I mean, obviously they were late, otherwise they could have 'influenced' things so the fleet never even sailed, surely!

But what if they DON'T have that power? What if they didn't have any knowledge of the fleet's existance until after it was smashed against the rocks?? Sudden storms do happen at sea and along the coastline of any nation. And even modern ships can founder because of navigation errors, especially one as rugged as around Cape Renda. So what I think is that a naturally occuring storm took the fleet by surprise, the lead ship panicked and made a navigational error which compounded the problem, and the fleet was doomed. And after the event, the CoE decided to leak that the storm may not have been natural (or maybe someone else just made it up, and they didn't deny it). That led to all the rumours and folklore, and suddenly there was this ominous reputation about Melderyn. And the kingdom didn't need to do a thing more than that.

Hope you like my theories.

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Leitchy
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The "actually is" IMC has a lot to do with the Henge Culture that spread across the world westward hundreds (and in some cases thousands) of years before the human migrations (as seen in the Lythian historical time lines).

The "Henge" are a racial group of humans, inheritors of early magical knowledge and established their own societies in places like Melderyn. With the coming of the human migrations to Melderyn they disappeared and assimilated but still exist as a strong (and sometime pure) bloodline in the Royal Families of Melderyn and Elmerene. The long lifetime of the Melderyn Royal Family has as much to do with their Henge racial background as magic, wealth, etc. "Kvikir" was originally a Henge word for the other human races.

With the teaching of magic to some of the new human arrivals "Kvikir" status became blurred but not so much that the Henge families divulge the existence of the secret Henge culture at the core of the Shek-P'var and the Royal Family.

Like different branches of the Shek-P'var each having their own goals and motivations the branches and individuals of the Henge Families vary and sometimes conflict. Though not everyone on the Council of Eleven is Henge the CoE represents the greater goal of the Henge in guiding the social growth of the people of Harn.

Though individuals have occasionally differed on methods the Henge have ceased arcane control of the tiny population of pre-Melderyn and now attempts to allow the much larger population of Harn to naturally grow to a more enlightened population.

While they have a lot of control on a basic scale, have their fingers and spies in many of the Kingdoms and can react to a variety of threats and changes the extent of the success of their attempts to channel the growth of the population of Harn is difficult to measure. They have a plan and a lot of tools and power but using their abilities extensively does more to retard the social growth of the population and cause fear and suspicion. The population is possibly too large now to mind control en-masse and even if they could mind control doesn't help them grow.

The Orbaalese expansion in to northern Harn is instituting completely different social structures and they also attack Melderyn's northern cities. On the one hand they don't want the Orbaalese messing up their plans but on the other hand making obvious magical efforts to stop them may cause even bigger problems. The churches of Morgath and Agrik produce a similar situation. The Elves and the Dwarves are long time allies of the Henge families who would find the long term changes positive but are not themselves beneficiaries.

A lot of the most "Enlightened" minds of Harn are members of the CoE and contribute to the growth of Harn. They effect things mostly through the teaching of their churches or groups.

The CoE does not itself have any power though each of its members are extremely influential. Through mutual support of a common goal they try to change things in small ways and rarely employ their power and influence openly. Embargoes, spying, scrying and getting information and tools to the right people to support their long term plans rather than targeted assassinations, mind control and massive storms.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

We do some things very differently. Your P-Harn Everyone (include knights, yeomen, men at arms and militia) got safely inside the city walls with several months of food, shelter was found for all of them and the outlying manors, however it's called Rape of Thay not the Looting or Pillage of Thay.

Try moving hundred and thousands of people without training scattered over the countryside factor in the diehards, pragmatists and opportunists.

I read it as self interest on the part of the Earl.

IMO the Rape of Thay was so Bad because they were unprepared (or they lack the perceived omniscience they possess in many P-Harns (Diviners not asking the right questions the occassional prescient vision of someone outside regular feudal authority (serfs make up the majority of the population Ah yes your majesty my goose girl is having visions about the city being destroyed).

They are human and fallible, otherwise Dulye would not still be running around causing trouble, after centuries of peace (budget cuts and finite resources insufficient to demand to be wasted on an imaginary threat which was reprioritized afterwards, they squashed the second attempt preemptively without mercy. Of course it could be a bad storm but that tends to indicate the magical ability of Melderyn the Wizard's Isle is vastly over rated.

Well, the official version says Thay was never breached.

"The event is known as the Rape of Thay although the city's defenses were not actually breached."

Not everyone/everything was safely inside the city. Just north of Thay there is a ruined Temple of Peoni: "An abandoned and former Temple of Peori, looted and destroyed by lvinians during the Rape of Thay."

Perhaps "The Looting and Burning of the Temple North of Thay" would be a more accurate name than "The Rape of Thay" but I expect a lot of people outside the city suffered at the hand of the Ivinians and I'm pretty sure there is mention of Warbrides captured and taken back to Orbaal.

The Orbaalese obviously saw more they wanted to get from Thay to try again with a much larger fleet 2 years later. If they had been significantly successful the first attempt a smaller fleet would probably been more approprite. Instead they gathered all the clans and made a huge attempt - that resulted not only in the destruction of the fleet but wiped their island mid-way base clear of evidence of the temporary settlement.


Even though the city was never breached the "Rape of Thay" stands out as one of the most significant negative events in Melderyni history. The entire migration wars passed by Melderyn without notable event but the Orbaalese managed to pirate the coastline for months.

What passes as almost weekly event in Orbaal was one of the most serious events in Melderyni history - that's a charmed life.


As always: your p-Harn may vary.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Sorry but I took countryside manor raiding for leagues around as a given. Not that the city walls had to be breached to destroy and loot those surrounding manors by the crews of forty dragon ships.

Imagine the damage for just a few days of raiding multiplied by any type of extended stay.

In some ways that is more telling nothing in canon. Melderyn did not sink the fleet on their way home when they should have been notified by the Church of Save Knor or some of the mages safely tucked away in Thay (Spoils were so good they came back a second time with an even larger dragon ship fleet).

You are right that they are human and fallible. Dyalne is not the only renegade of the roll of renegades. IMC the way for a renegade to survive is to change name and location frequently and keep a low profile so any scrying is difficult. If you have access to Savoryn protection magics as well your chances are much improved.

Dyalne is one of my favorite bad-guys (although the players in several campaigns refer to her primarily as "The Bitch"). IMC she was expelled because of some of those disagreements over methods different members of the CoE have. She is more of a Melderyni Ultra-Nationalist. I don't think her family, other members, or her sister actually want her killed and I don't think most other Shek-P'var pose her much threat.

IMC for Dyalne renegade = exile. (Most mages renegade = death sentance). It is regretable that some unwise Shek-P'var do occasionally loose their lives attempting to find her. But I've had campaigns where things went so bad in Melderyn that Dyalne had to come back from exile to head what's left of the council.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)