From Robin's Preface to the 1983 Harnview:

"I also wish to acknowledge my debt to Tom Dalgiesh, without whose creative and persistent editing, Harn would still be in eight, unusable volumes."

Does anyone out there know what became Robin's original 8-volume manuscript for Harnworld? Does anyone know where the manuscripts are, ... or whether they are even still in existence?

Any idea how much of a *substantive* difference there is between Robin's 8-volume draft and what ultimately got published in 1983?

Anyone know if there are earlier drafts out there? Or notes in manuscript from-- and how they may be different?

P.S. In case anyone is wondering as to why I'm asking... I'm really just curious about this from a historical/evolutionary perspective. (I also have lingering fascination with manuscripts, just for their own sake.) I have no legal stake in the NRC-Kelestia/CGI dispute and even if my question somehow touches on that, my question is not driven by personal or professional interest in it.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Rob Duff may know. I've gone through what material was on hand and seen some original maps and some material of Robin's fantasy world predating Kethira, but not these 8 volumes.

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Ken Snellings
CHMP Member
Fredericksburg, Virginia, United States of America

I think these were somehow stolen by Agrik

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

There's a real chance Tom has them if he did the editing. There's an irony if true.

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The Melderyn Campaign

Am I correct in the believe that the predecessor world was Sherem?
The same Sherem which is still one of the Kethiran family of worlds?

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...and I'm not dead yet...

My guess (and that's all it is) is that the "eight, unusable volumes" was more a reference to how Robin organized things as well as his own, somewhat rambling, style. I doubt there are any "lost manuscripts" out there.

Yes. Per Robin's introduction to the "Lost Gods: The Libram of the Nushenic Pantheon":



If you haven't read this item, I strongly recommend it. It offers some fascinating insight into the origins of the Harnic pantheon.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

No, it wasn't my assumption that there were unpublished volumes of choice material out there. Still, it did get me thinking about the question of the original manuscripts- and where they might be.

I might be nerdy about this, but I I often find it fascinating to look at drafts and manuscripts to see how an idea evolved/changed over time and various drafts. I find it neat, for instance, to know that lin one of the earliest drafts of LOTR, the reason Gandalf was delayed in meeting Frodo-- or rather Bingo-- had nothing to do with another wizard, but because he was held captive in the land of Fangorn by an evil giant named Treebeard....

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Let me clarify that:

I strongly recommend this if you are interested in the historical development of the Harnic pantheon as a creative/literary/fictional idea, that was developed by Robin for his first game world, and then altered, and condensed for Harn. It's not necessarily of great interest to folks who are looking for material that is of direct immediate application to Harn.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Robin's eight volumes really did exist, essentially eight 3 ring binders crammed with lots of maps and text. It should be noted, however, that all of this material covered a place called Nusha on a world called Sherem, this being the world that Robin and his players (Rob Duff, Simon Matthews, and Ed King) actually played on. The origin of Hârn itself arose after we agreed to publish and Robin wanted to do it all again and get it right. He also wanted to continue being the Nusha GM and did not want his players knowing the background details of Nusha.

The original 8 volumes had names such as Tome of the Shek P'var, Libram of the Pantheon, Cities of Nusha, and other scattered material on kingdoms and military orders. And a lot of rules, although they were quite different to those later published as HârnMaster - the original rules were essentially a complex D&D system, with levels and such.

In any event, the original volumes were all retained by Robin after he and I keyboarded all the text material into an IBM word processor. This was 1982, the early days of IBM PCs, and there was no text scanning software then. We had one of these new IBMs and Robin would come to our office most evenings and work ALL NIGHT keyboarding the material into various word files. During the day, I would read and edit these files, adding new material that mostly related to history and economics. I also created and built the original Hårndex, expanding on Robin's new geographical index for Hârn.

It is possible that the original 8 NUSHA volumes still exist. I'm sure Robin kept them, but his estate might not since they did not relate specifically to Hârn.

Thanks, Tom! I appreciate you taking the time to clarify and provide a bit of history lesson.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Robin rarely slept at night; on the couple of occassions I stayed with him, I'd have to drag myself to bed at 4am or later because I was dead on my feet. Robin was still going strong. He was always very disappointed in me...but heck, I'm only human!

Mind you, I'd then have all morning to myself as the girls were at school and Sharon was off to work...and Robin was making like a chainsaw upstairs. I got a lot of western Vancouver visited at those times (ah...Alouette Lake and the Golden Ears, so pretty).

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Cheers

Leitchy
List & Forum Admin
Admin FAQs
[Updated 25-FEB-2011]

Hahaha. I remember that time you managed to get out from Vancouver and swing down to Seattle to spend the day talking Harn with me as I blew through on my way to Japan. Good times, good times.

I think that was my second trip (2002); I spent 4 days in Seattle in 1997. But I had a blast that day, it was fantastic to catch up with you. Still remember the park...and being amazed at the size of the I90.

Oh, and the pizza...Chicago style.

Hell, I miss you guys. I think I need to put on a HarnCon here in Oz with enough time for all my Harn friends to make enough arrangements to get here (including you Munin). Just so I can catch up with everyone again. I have a big enough house on my farm to sleep a dozen or so people (just need extra beds), there's a convenient community hall not far away I can easily rent with all the comforts, and there are plenty of hotels, motels and so on in Canberra for any overflow which is under an hour away. And you'd get to experience country Australia with big city convenience not too far away.

I'm sure Wayfarer would help out too, now he's in Canberra.

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Cheers

Leitchy
List & Forum Admin
Admin FAQs
[Updated 25-FEB-2011]

I certainly would help out

Wafarer, your not in Darwin anymore?

But at least you went like a harnic magnet to somewhere there is another Harn player.

Allan

It's a bit of a shame my group mostly plays Shadowrun, with some board gaming and Song of Fire and Ice as well, and only gets to Harn once every 6 months or so...and even then my group is full (my game is limited to 6 players because I know my limitations as a GM). Our Shadowrun groups often get to 8 players.

Sorry Pete!

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Cheers

Leitchy
List & Forum Admin
Admin FAQs
[Updated 25-FEB-2011]

Be careful what you offer, Peter, my wife and I have been looking for a way to get to Oz. We might just take you up on it!

What legally or illegally?
Darwin is the boat capital of australia for people smugglers, so we could catch up here as you go south.

Allan

The offer is open...

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Cheers

Leitchy
List & Forum Admin
Admin FAQs
[Updated 25-FEB-2011]

Nope I have been in Canberra since august

Sooo, a place to stay when I come down for CanCon??

Allan

We can probably sort something out, I have a spare room