EDIT- My original thread seemed too broad, so I've narrowed it down to one main topic.

I don’t really like the idea of a polytheistic society in which most people worship one god out of ten. I'd like to add a little more 'poly' in the theism, but also carve out something vaguely like the Church. I think both goals are doable.

Larani, Peoni, and Save-K’nor- I will do something similar to what others have done, and play up the close ties among these three gods and their followers. In some areas, they are effectively a single church with three branches. I may play up the pseudo-Christian elements.

Agrik can remain a jealous god, but I don’t see why he would object to his followers making small offerings to most of the other gods for things Agrik considers extraneous to his interests. Larani would be an exception, of course.

Naveh’s cult works fine as is.

I’m not sure how I feel about Morgath, but I do want to keep the Balshan Jihad. I might take a page from history and cast the Morgathians as radical religious communists, like the most violent Anabaptists of the Reformation. Think Jan of Leiden, only worse. I notice that the Morgathian article already includes some elements of leveling and anarchy. It wouldn’t take much to make Balsha’s heresy one of those crazy ‘Kingdom of God on Earth’ cults.

I think Halea’s church would make a good mystery religion. To the uninitiated masses, she is as she appears in Harn Religion, a sybarite’s goddess. The initiated get to experience the more esoteric side of the goddess. Plenty of people make offerings to her for good luck in business of romance, and to seal bargains. The inner cult is more exclusive, and requires that worshippers reject the false bargains of the other gods. It doesn’t require that adherents ignore the other gods, though; just not make lasting pacts with them.

Sarajinians tend to be pragmatic, and don’t usually see a problem adding other gods to their cult, so long as the gods are not enemy gods and Sarajin is always placed at the top of the mountain. This is a bit like the way some Norse added the White Christ to their worship while preserving Odin and the rest of their native gods.

I don’t think I’ll alter Ilvir or his cults all that much. He rocks my world.

I have no plans to change Siem’s worship yet, but that may change. It depends on what I do with the dwarves and elves.


Other ideas about the gods and religion-

I may include a Harnic equivalent of the Hesiod’s Theogeny, and possibly Homer’s two great epics. This could help tie the ten major churches together, but instead of a common scripture they would have some common ‘secular’ literature.

I may add the concept of a single creator god, one that is envisioned differently in different cultures. This figure would remain absent or very distant, granting no miracles and responding to no prayers.

I like the 3 religions assuming a pseudo christianity function. Save can be similar to monastical orders, peonians the simple friars that preached to the masses.

I like to throw in Agrik as a branch of this as well - many wars on Terra were between opposing branches of christianity, like the Cathar heretics, the Hussites, the many religous wars between protestants and Catholics.

To me, Agrik is one of these branches. Get rid of the V'hir (Maybe put them with Morgath), and some of the rituals, and they are merely a branch of the Pseudo christian religion.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Pantheism treating it like the Olympian Pantheon with the canon default with more than a single patron power if desired.

Early Christianity still in conquer and conquest mode similar to many P-Harns.

Of course where one is born, social standing and profession colors PC perception.

Perhaps, although I can’t help but think that these two goals may be somewhat at odds with each other− i.e. making the world more polytheistic (in the sense that individuals worship multiple gods, not just one), while also creating a more unified church that is devoted to (I presume) just a few of them. One way this could work, though, might be do this as a kind of old religion vs. new church sort of thing, wherein these was an established tradition of worshipping multiple gods, and then a new church that is supplanting it.



“Triadism” lives. *sigh* I personally hate that particular model, although I understand why some embrace it. (It just seems so clichéd to me…. and I really dislike the fact that it turns Save-K’nor from a ‘neutral’ deity into a ‘good’ one.)

If it sounds good to you, of course, you should do it, but may I suggest that you consider some other options which may be more intriguing, such as:

-- Just use Larani and Peoni and don’t add a third god. These two they go well together, and are already established as ‘allied’ churches in existing material. Myth also recounts that Larani is Peoni’s daughter, and that’s the only familial relationship suggested in canon material− at least regarding the Harnic view of the gods. These two really don’t need a third god to turn them into a trinity.

--If you must use a trio, why not Larani, Peoni, and Halea? There seems to me to be something fun about having the “Church” in such a reconstructed Harn being devoted to the three female goddesses, while the male gods are all outside of it. And there is a kind of neat synergy between the three of them and the three basic social divisions of Harnic society− nobility, peasantry, and craftsmen/merchants.

-- Or, consider the possibilities of Larani, Peoni, and Siem. Again, that may seem odd at first− but they are the three undisputed ‘good gods’ of the pantheon, per Robin’s original design. It bears thinking about it least….



Isn’t that what Libram of the Pantheon is supposed to be (along with other tales and myths, such as are exemplified in the “Tales of the Lesser Gods” from Gods of Harn)?



Two questions: (1) Why? What would be gained by this, especially if the god is to be remote and distant? (2) Why not elevate one of the existing gods to this station? Save-K’nor, who is the keeper of the Var-Hyvrak and the arbiter of gods and supposedly neutral seems a good candidate-- maybe not as a ‘creator’ god, but a ‘supreme judge / arbiter’ type of god? Or maybe Siem, who is described in canon as “The First God” and who indeed absent, having removed himself to another realm?

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Ho- Kay...
Although I like the idea of forming a pseudo-Christian trinity, I am rather with Jim Chokey here in having issues with putting Save-knor in there.
If you're into Homer and greek mythology, why not going all the distance and include Agrik in the trinity, like Athene and Ares. Two gods of war, one the tactician, the other the harbinger of havoc and rage, both born to one gentle mother: Peoni.

Tying Balshanism in there is certainly an idea worth pursuing, especially, if you go with the notion that it is some sort of heresy of the established faith.

Regarding Save-knor in general:
To my dying shame I must admit that I rather ignore that guy when thinking Harn. He seems such a waste of time to me. (Just look at Varaxis from the infamous 'Curse of Hlen' to get an idea what I mean)
The fellow does nothing more but to administrate vast volumes of knowledge.
SO WHAT?!?
I just never got it, and I likely never will. That's not a god, that's a bureaucrate, the secretary of education to the Pantheon. My dear...

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"The purpose of the game is to entertain the players and the GM. The rest is just semantics."
-by Munin from the forum-

Also a neat idea. I actually thought about proposing Peoni – Larani – Agrik as an alternate possibility. It certainly does seem that those three are more closely linked in Harnic mythology than any other gods. (See the charts I posted on viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12769 recently, particularly the final chart (in my fourth post). That said, if I wanted to establish a mythological relationship with these three, I’d be more inclined to posit Agrik as Larani’s father, rather than her brother. (Although I suppose if you don’t mind divine incest, he *could* be both…) It makes a lot of sense to me, IMHO, to see Larani as a kind of combination of Agrik and Peoni. Of course, Jamie Norrish, back in the old days of the Harnlist and HRT, did a lot of cool stuff with myths of Larani and Agrik as brother & sister....

That said, while these three do seem to be so beautifully liked together mythically, I’m finding it a bit harder to envision a ‘church’ that reveres these three as the primary gods. That would require downplaying so much of the antagonism between the two in existing myths− and between their followers in the world. I’m not saying it can’t be done, but it seems challenging...

.

I think part of the problem is that it’s very easy to just see Save-K’nor as a ‘god of knowledge’ and dismiss him in the way you describe. But he’s much more. He is, among other things, the arbiter of the Concordat and other gods heed his decisions. Example: The story of Naveh and Halea’s dispute ends up with a decision by Save-K’nor that’s heeded by Halea. He also advised the other gods *not* to try to take Bukrai back from Morgath on the grounds that the time is not yet right. So, he serves as a kind of divine 'judge' as well as a counselor of the other gods, and while he may not be a 'ruling god' (like Zeus), the others sure do seem accord him respect follow his lead.

Even more, Save-K’nor’s role as a knowledge god should not be dismissed as mere librarianism/antiquarianism. Part of the Concordat that established peace among the gods, after all, required that certain forms of knowledge be hidden away (in the Illimitable Tome), because they were too dangerous to be known by gods and men. Save-K’nor *possesses* all that knowledge that men have been denied− and that other gods even denied themselves. He’s a keeper of dangerous forbidden secrets− god-slaying and world-destroying secrets! And while he doesn’t use them… who is to say he couldn’t? Anyone who hungers for secret, forbidden, dangerous knowledge that man should follow the path Save-K’nor that they might prove worthy of uncovering such cosmic terrors, and his name should be spoken with fear and awe by all others!

P.S. Referencing “Curse of Hlen” is low blow. That’s like citing “Love Beach” as an example of a Emerson Lake & Palmer album. I mean, yeah, it was released, but it's just rude to talk about it....

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Wow!


Well, the comments have given me a lot to think about.

Harnmaster Religion includes a few passages that almost make Agrik sound like the 'devil' of the Laranian church.
''The fiery tempter spews vile words at the ear of mortal folly." (Larani 3 sidebar Corruption in the Church).

Just make sure your religion matches your society. The relationships between the gods mirrors the relationships of their followers - that's why Agrik appears almost like a demon in myths involving Larani. If you tie in different deities into trinities, you are also tying in the social groups that favor them. Certain behaviors become virtues, other, perhaps, become sins. If you put Halea or Save K'nor in a trinity with Larani and Peoni, then you also must adapt the social code to reflect that.

That makes sense.

I think I like the idea of building on the relationship between Larani and Agrik.

A strict interpretation of CGI canon does make Agrik into the devil. The Kelestia view of him is a little more neutral in tone. There are adherents to each. I'm one of those that see Gods of Harn as written by a zealous Laranian, and it is what he wants the world to be, not what is actually is.

For example, the V'hir were made from Agrik, but is the demonic look just Laranian propaganda, or perhaps a physical manifestation of the fighting prowess they have on rare occasions? Fire and war both can destroy, but war can protect a nation, and fire can warm the hearth and cook the food. My Agrik portrays the good and evil, although the Rethemi church only is interested in the evil.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12278&p=159923#p159923
There was some good discussion on heresies, including a possible Agrik-Peoni-Larani connection in this thread.

A key part to any fantasy religion changes is deciding the truth. Next, decide whether this truth is widely held across the world. Do some areas have an incomplete truth, have they mixed up their stories, and are there outright heresies floating around? The "truth" of the Harnic religion does not have to be the same as the "truth" espoused elsewhere.

I fully agree!



I like this idea. One's demons may be anothers angels.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I have Harnmaster Religion, but not Gods of Harn. Are there many differences?

Yes. Gods of Harn was purely a 'setting' supplement. There are no rules for rituals, divine intervention, creating priest PCs using Harnmaster, etc.

It also had several pages on mythology (including the "Tales of the Lesser Gods") and more detailed information on a number of points regarding church histories. There's also some other information that was included there, that wasn't reproduced in HMR (titles of some church fighting order offices, etc.)

I personally consider it, rather than HMR, the 'go-to' publication for Harn religion.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Hmmm...

I may need to buy a copy.

That's a popular view, and one that I'm somwehat sympathetic to-- at least in that, I envision Agrikanism of having a much more complex, rich, and profound character to it than is explicitly laid out in Gods of Harn (or HMR).

That said, I do think that it is worth keeping in mind that the idea that some gods were 'good' and that others were 'evil' was part of Robin's original vision (e.g. his 1970s Nushenic pantheon with six good gods, six amoral gods, and six evil gods-- with the good and evil gods of different areas being actively opposed to each other.) Obviously, most of that structure was lost when the Nushenic panthon was condensed into the 10-god Harnic pantheon, but the opposition of the good and evil 'war gods', Larani and Agrik, was maintained. Some of the text in the 1983 Harndex conveys hints of this more systemic moral structure for the pantheon, such as where it's said that Agrik stands "diametrically opposed" to Larani. (Curiously, the opposition between the good and evil 'dream gods'-- Siem and Naveh-- was kind of downplayed in the 1983 books and Gods of Harn... although I think you can see hints of it elsewhere, such as in the Bejist article.)

The fact that Robin's original model of a pantheon built around good/evil divine oppositions is partly maintained in gods of Harn-- but also partly abandoned-- does explain why so many Harniacs have grappled with this issue. I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing, in that I think this tension does provide us with a far more interesting range of choices for how we want to proceed in interpreting the pantheon for our own P-Harns, than it would be if everything had been neatly pat, like in the original Nushenic Pantheon.

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

Reminds me of the CHaotic Evil vs. Lawful Good of D&D.

I was never a fan of the alignment rules, felt very contrived.

"I want to help the Damsel in distress"

GM - You can't, you are Chaotic Evil.

"Hmmmmm....Can I kidnap her then from the person who kidnapped her in the first place??"

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

.

I think part of the problem is that it’s very easy to just see Save-K’nor as a ‘god of knowledge’ and dismiss him in the way you describe. But he’s much more. He is, among other things, the arbiter of the Concordat and other gods heed his decisions. Example: The story of Naveh and Halea’s dispute ends up with a decision by Save-K’nor that’s heeded by Halea. He also advised the other gods *not* to try to take Bukrai back from Morgath on the grounds that the time is not yet right. So, he serves as a kind of divine 'judge' as well as a counselor of the other gods, and while he may not be a 'ruling god' (like Zeus), the others sure do seem accord him respect follow his lead.

Even more, Save-K’nor’s role as a knowledge god should not be dismissed as mere librarianism/antiquarianism. Part of the Concordat that established peace among the gods, after all, required that certain forms of knowledge be hidden away (in the Illimitable Tome), because they were too dangerous to be known by gods and men. Save-K’nor *possesses* all that knowledge that men have been denied− and that other gods even denied themselves. He’s a keeper of dangerous forbidden secrets− god-slaying and world-destroying secrets! And while he doesn’t use them… who is to say he couldn’t? Anyone who hungers for secret, forbidden, dangerous knowledge that man should follow the path Save-K’nor that they might prove worthy of uncovering such cosmic terrors, and his name should be spoken with fear and awe by all others![/quote]

This is how I look at Save-Knor. On another thread sometime back, someone posted that he could see a Save-Knorian Father Inquistor visiting other churches to make sure everything was on the up and up... I like that.
In my pharn Save-knor's priesst are feared by all churches and are looked at in awe by the masses. They keep the status quo, control knowledge, and generaly make sure the other churches don't go all medievel on each other.

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Ok, let me get this straight. These guys come in, trash the place, slap Agrik & Larani around, and the most intelligible thing they said was "Zog!"?

The only thing that quote shows is the ignorance of a routinely dumb GM and the rules lawyering propensity of his equally clueless player — what a perfect fit!

The basic idea of the alignment wheel is great, the usual childish interpretations of alignments less so (and yes, to me this childishness includes Gygax's original AD&D definitions).

To get a better notion of what alignments really are, superimpose the alignment wheel and a Yin-Yang symbol so that the Lawful Evil mark aligns precisely with the Yin maximum, and thus that the Yang maximum coincides with the Chaotic Good mark. Got it? If yes, good, you've just reconnected D&D alignments with real-world philosophy and esoterism (quite an useful thing IMO). If not, too bad, I'd suggest you just go back to playing with the imaginary GM and player so helpfully quoted above.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Yeah, I believe that might have been me, as this looks vaguely familiar, though IMPH it isn't a widely publicised fact, the leaders of the other churches preferring to keep pretending they answer only to their respective deities and the Save-K'norians themselves perfectly happy to keep everyone incompletely informed.

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

Somewhat, but I think the more apt comparison might be the gods of Tekumel, from Empire of the Petal Throne. That pantheon consisted of 10 main gods, 5 of whom represented ‘stability’, 5 of whom represented ‘change’− and who were kind of like reverse mirrors in their functions. Thus Belkhanu, the god of stability with dominion over death was “The Opener of Heaven, Lord of the Excellent Dead”, etc. While Sarku, the god of change associated with death, was the “Lord of Worms, Master of the Undead,” etc.

Robin’s Nushenic pantheon was similar, except that he had three groups (good, evil, amoral/neutral)of six gods rather than two groups of five. What makes it more similar to Tekumel than D&D I think is the fact that these gods functions somewhat mirrored each other. (So that you could, instead, think of it as six groups of three gods, each representing a moral spectrum in relation to one area of human activity). Thus there was one good god of knowledge (who used knowledge to help and heal− this was Peoni, by the way, who had not yet acquired her fertility/simple-virtue associations) , one amoral god of knowledge (Save-K’nor), and … a third god whose name eludes me, who sought to knowledge for malevolent purposes. You also had the same for dreams (Siem = beneficial dreams), another goddess (named S’shii or something like that) who was neutral, and Naveh for nighmares.

As Robin observed in his notes to the Nushenic pantheon (which you can get from Kelestia for $5 should you be interested), the only ‘triad’ to survive intact in the conversion to Harn were the war gods Larani (good), Sarajin (neutral), and Agrik (evil)...

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"

I'd rate the Harnic gods thusly, in AD&D terms:

Lawful Good: Larani
Lawful Neutral: Save K'nor
Lawful Evil: Naveh
Neutral Good:Peoni
True Neutral: Halea, Sarajin
Neutral Evil: Agrik
Chaotic Good: Siem
Chaotic Neutral: Ilvir
Chaotic Evil: Morgath


It might make more sense to say that Siem is NG and Peoni is LG, and there are no CG deities. Ilvir might just be N, and not CN. He's pretty alien, so it's hard to say.

As Harnmaster Religion notes in the Morgath section, gods are not churches. Morgath is the 'Lord of Chaos' but his church is actually very strictly regulated and unifrom.

Don't pigeonhole it by alignment. The gods (and the resulting churches themselves) are so much richer if you don't try to reduce them to a 2-dimensional axis. This is doubly true when terms like "good" and "evil" are so loaded and subjective. Lots of people have done lots of work over the years to really bring more depth and detail and interpretation to the various religions, and it's some really good stuff. Go to the HRT pages (you can get to them from the Lythia.com main page) and just have a browse around.

Further, don't treat the churches as monolithic entities, because they're not. There are orderial and dogmatic differences within each of the churches, and these bring in all sorts of social and institutional ramifications that make excellent inspirational material for games. Everybody knows about the infighting between the various Agrikan orders, but the Solora Crusade is likely to cause a schism within the Laranian church in the very near future, as might the Kaldoric Succession Crisis. Ilviranism is fragmented and highliy individualistic, with sects like the Pia Gardith and the Dark Order on literally and lethally opposite ends of an issue. And there's no reason you can't have militant Peonians (see Harn Pottage III for inspiration) or pacifist Agrikans (I've often though it would be cool to have a sect of Agrikans who were essentially ascetics preaching calm self-denial) or merciful Morgathians (bringing the gift of undeath to the sick and dying) or even violent Haleans (enforcers of Sardura's bargains, who make sure people make good on their promises to the church or are utterly ruined).

As essentially human institutions, the churches offer excellent opportunities for variety.

As I noted, gods are not churches.

That's actually taken straight from Harnmaster Religion.

There was an even older thread on Laranian heresies here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6824&p=90463&hilit=agrik#p90463

It had some good ideas... if I may say so myself, considering I also posted there. Here's my post on some possible (crazy) heretic ideas that could spice things up:

Larani and Agrik were once lovers. The Vhir are her secret sons. Those very few Laranian priests who understand these secret and ancient truths worship the Righteous Fire as an aspect of Larani, may even gain special rituals having to do with fire (and perhaps sex, or fire plus sex), and believe that one day Larani will conceive Servants of Fire (the Anti Vhir) or perhaps that they can one day convert the Vhir back to the service of their mother. They hold secret talks with heretics of Agrik, who believe it is the Vhir's destiny to slay their father or lord (doctrine diverges here) and replace him, as the OctoVhirat, a new Messianic Being with shared consciousness that will cleanse the world in fire for a new beginning, before perhaps becoming the consort of Larani. There is a Mystery (Secret) Cult, which holds sex rituals that emphasize cleansing passionate fire. It is rumoured that sometimes attractive members of Agriks clergy are invited to participate...

Larani and Agrik were once lovers AND are brothers. Peoni knows this, and Larani's enmity stems from her shame also. Agrik has been cast out for his incestuous love, and this is the moment when he turned to real evil (before this he was simply a slightly hotheaded fighter god), when he became as he his today. Some believe he can be turned back, but Larani must do penance before this happens. Heretics who believe this know that the deitys can err, and that their actions have consequences that the deities themselves can't fully understand. There must be a higher principle, perhaps some greater being in which all gods are united and all supposed oppositions and enmities reconciled...

Or perhaps it was Pameshlu, who at the behest of Agrik, once tried to seduce Larani and move her away from her path. And Larani gave in, even if for a moment only... Perhaps she secretly conceived... Perhaps Pameshlu has a son, and Agrik now fears him, for some strange prophecies state that this son will replace him as the new God of Fire and Battle Lust, and perhaps may not be all evil... And some few followers of Larani pray to this secret son, now living in Balgashang with his father, and secretly try to bring him over... But perhaps it's all a ruse of Pameshlu, who created the prophecies just so he could sway some clerics of Larani, to get a better inner understanding and information of her church....

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José de Freitas
Portugal

This is awesome! As for possible heretics for them to talk to... I'd be inclined to look about the Agrikan Order of the Eight Demons, which some other orders consider heretical (and whose name aligns itself well with the idea you suggest). The Eight Demons is headed in Tharda, where they could potenially have at least cordial discourse with Laranians, and where they both might find common ground as followers of warrior gods, frustrated with the dominance of the Halean church in the Republic. [/quote]




More sons overthrowing fathers, eh? This is great Oedipal/mythic stuff. I like the way you think!

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-- Jim Chokey

"Argent, chief embattled tenne. A coney of the field and crossed carrots proper"