Do you think there's enough spells in Harn, and if not, how have you gone about adding more to the mix?

"Enough" depends on your taste and needs, I think. For my purposes, there's plenty, but if I have a need for something not covered by one of the hundreds of canon and fanon spells available (or easily modified from one), I just make it up. Plus, I've kept copies of the spells various PC mages have invented in my game over the years.

Harn's magic is decidedly "do it yourself." It seems, beyond a short-list of of "commonly known spells," that Shek-Pvar develop their own magics and don't see fit to disseminate them very far. Perhaps making some spells unique to a give chantry or circle of allied mages. This has the advantage of making each mage unique. It has the drawback, of course, of leaving most of the work up to the end-user.

I don't know about "enough" spells, I just wish they had more descriptive names.
Calling a spell - Alfred's Abstraction or such doesn't help me know what it is or does, particularly on a PC sheet. But if spells had names like - Sphere of Darkness, Beam of Light, Subliminal message etc, that would give a quick indication of what abilities a PC or NPC had.

I use Role Master's Spell Law for inspiration, it has over 3,500 spells; these spells are based on a 10 second round and use a percentile Master Level; So this reference should inspire your budding: mage, shek-pvar, hedge wizard, or whatever you call him or her to create dozens of spells of there own.

In my opinion, the truth is that magic and religion were rough into the Harn as an after thought. Magic's footprint on Harn is light (if not almost non-existent) and religion can be extremely powerful and without boundries - unless self-imposed restriction by the GM/player are used.

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For what it's worth, that's the way I see it

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Bloody Bohemian Earspoon Inn

For some of the reasons you mention above, I think the hardest thing is to play is for a GM to play a powerful NPC magic user. You want them to have some of their own spells, so it requires a good deal of work.

Rolemaster is a good idea - But I think the most important part to to set up "boundires" as to what spells can and cannot do in your P-Harn, and the level of difficulty of doing certain things

For example, Rolemaster has no flying spells - is this applicable to you Harn? And how hard are various things to manipulate?

For instance IMC "healing" things is tough. Nothing short of a maracle will re-vivify or grow back a sundered limb (Interestingly enough, I believe Agrik lost a hand/claw that will not grow back???), so healing spells are all fairly weak and work with the bodies natural recuperative powers. But that's just my personal Harn.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I'd like to see more, particularly spell duplication by other other convocations to achieve similar effects. IMO that is the best reason to open Sjari as a general purpose hedge magery limited to level I and II spells unless specializing in one of the disciplines for some general utility breadth with their primary and neutral discipline.

Savoryan Charm compared to Fyvrian hormonal or pheromone based. Higher level neutral spells that duplicate lower level effects of other convocations. Alchemical enhancement and tempering with Peleahn and Fyvrian for herbal potions and elixirs or parchment, leather and textiles. Maybe a Neutral III or IV Utility Pvaric Tempering spell for general crafting or processes similar to the Jmorvi Tempering II for Alchemy, Brewing, Cookery, Glasswork, Hidework, Jewelcraft, Woodcraft. Based on some modern scientific principles.

Little things like a Copper wire with a drop of water makes a basic microscope.

That could be duplicated by Eye of Odivshe I or II a pvaric "discovery" which requires neither material component because it is using a property of the water effecting the light although most pvaric philosophers would think it should be Lyahvi based.

Now the Eye of Lyahvi might be quite a bit more effective based on glass lens but most microscopes and telescopes of the period are rather primitive possibly due to pvaric interference.



Bummer Regenesis is one of the best canon spells in the game for a Fyvrian or Gray Mage IMO. Major political favor(s) with a church or high noble if used sparingly since there are only a limited number of people who know it. Regrowth of Evala is a very tweakable spell for regenerating a limb on a creature without the Regenesis limitations IMO.

Agrik did not have access to the godly equivalent of Fyvrian IV Regenesis since Save Knor, Siem and Peoni are opposed to his agenda and not in their best interests to heal him IMO. We have shape changing spells in Fyvrian and Neutral convocations at fifth level.

This I'd like to see, and if not more. Spells that are more powerful than their level would suggest but require herbs or other items to make them work.

For instance, a healing spell that requires and herb. The healing spell magnifies the properties of the herb.



He's a GOD! I would think he would have access to higher level neutral spells that could do the same thing. Or one of his followers would. I would think he would have access to a pwerful gray mage, either through "alliance", coercion, or even bribery, at least at some point in the past few thousand years (think of Doctor Faust and the Devil)



The reason I don't like these powerful of spells over healing and life and death - the truly infuential on Harn would rarely die early, some may live many lifetimes. And they would almost never succumb to any plague or other ailments like heart attacks (even if they were they could be brought back).

Look at it this way - if one convocation has a spell that prolongs life at X level, another convocation or neutral should be able to have the same at least at X+1 level. And Harn Magic states that mages are better off looking for spells of their own convocation that mirro the spells of other convocations as opposed to learning the other convocation's spells, so it implies most spells of one convocation can be duplicated, though it may be harder to achieve the effects depending upon ocnvocation.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Also, the wound Agrik received was inflicted by an angry deity taking for the first time her vengeful aspect, using one of the most powerful swords in the multiverse; what puny mortal spell is going to be able to change that?

If you feel the need to factor in the beneficial spells surely then you have to account for the inimical spells too. Also, and more importantly, the ancients had a name for those plays based on stories where men try to outwit fate: tragedy. So it all depends on how you see yourself as a GM: Administrator of a PC improvement factory, or teller of tall tales?

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

That's a possibility there, that the attack was done by a goddess and her sword.

It just seems awful strange though that a human, struck by a magical sword, can then regenerate the arm through puny human magic, whereas one of the most powerful beings in the universe cannot regenerate his.

I guess my thoughts - If a human arm which is lopped of by another human, even with a magical weapon being used can be regenerated, than a gods arm lopped off by another god should be capable of such. And Agrik, being a potent magic user himself should be capable of such.



True, but wounds caused by spells can be healed. Though there are other magical attacks that would not be healed in a normal fashion. Perhaps one thing here to compare it to is the attack on Frodo by the Witch King could only be healed by Elrond, perhaps the best healer in Middle Earth.

Though I also look at Maedhros in the Silmarillion - he lost an arm which never grew back, even though the Noldor would have had some of the most skilled magical healers available.

Regeneration of arms seems a bit to "high fantasy" for me, though some like it as a lost arm may render a PC less useful, so to me it's more of a gamist element. The PC missing his arm below the elbow actually creates a more interesting story to me!

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Exactly what I was thinking since he is one of the most Powerful Multidimensional Lesser Gods and not associated with Healing or Magic as a sphere of influence. The god who created him might be able to heal him for a price he is not willing to pay but depends on the P-Harn.

Hercules was a super strong demi-god and his spheres covered strength based feats but being a demi-god in and of itself alone is something he is commonly known for casting healing spells .

Agrik is indeed said to have refused Peoni's healing, prefering to keep the maimed hand as a reminder of his hate towards Larani.

Legends tell us Heracles died of his own accord because it was the only way he could escape the torments his poisoned (and un-healable) wounds inflicted him. Again destiny trumps healing spells (or predictable game mechanics).

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«Fair is what we see, Fairer what we have perceived, Fairest what is still in veil.»
—Nicolaus Stenonius

I would have thought the idea of Agrik to have had claws severed and somehow unable to heal himself to be basic allegory. Especially as IMC the gods are spiritual in nature and take physical forms they choose and create.

But I do have to give thought and credit to the idea of Larani's sword "angry deity taking for the first time her vengeful aspect, using one of the most powerful swords in the multiverse" having the potential to cause lasting/incurable wounds.

Still in my own thinking I credit the basis of the story to the surrendering of divine flesh to Ilvir used to produce the V'hir (or the 8 drops of blood or whatever). Whether Agrik could have/has cured himself/regrown the claws would be simple cosmetics - that the flesh/power he surrendered to create the V'hir is still functionally a lessening of Agrik to produce his servants.


The idea that the shape changing spells as neutral magic relating to metamorphosis in plane travel due to the subject's aura. Would a person with and injury step through a godstone and come out on the other side cured? or is a physical injury reflected in the aura in some fashion so that the injury conveys to the destination. Even if healing magic was limited to working with the body's recuperative powers could a mage use magic to modify a subject's aura and send them through a godstone to enact a effect? Or if such shape changing spells can be affect with neutral magic could they also cause/cure injuries?

Whatever the nature of the gods and their conflicts combat between them is probably directed to harming more than just the physical manifestation that humans can perceive and could conceivably harm. Whether Larani hacking off Agrik's claws is an accurate description of what occurred or not the essence of their enmity and harm is probably accurate.

Which makes me think about the question "how many angels could dance on the head of a pin?". A pin is a simple 3 dimensional object and a god might be a vast creature of infinite dimensions. How could you expect that many such beings could be constrained to such insignificance as to have a party on the head of a tiny physical object. Whouldn't the best answer to that question be "none"?

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

what about theory that a wound inflicted on a god by another god, would be the same as a wound inflicted upon a mortal by another mortal?

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For what it's worth, that's the way I see it

That is actually how I look at it George, I think it is a logical progression.

The only issue as a counter to that IMO is how would such an injury manifest itself? The mortal is injuring flesh, the god is injuring the "mana" of the other god.

Is it truly the arm of Agrink that is injured? Can Agrik shapechange? (I don't know per canon if he indeed can, but given the power that these gods have you would expect it) If he can, are all of his physical manifestations wounded in the arm as well?



I remember that now Mac. Was it stated she could heal it back to where it was prior to the attack? I do not recall.



This logic does not make sense here to me. If this is indeed the case, than would not it be logical that the only person who can heal a severed mortal's arm is the one who created the mortal? That would put healing outside of gods such as Agrik, Peoni, etc. - after all, they were not the creators of the mortal race.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I think it's enough to say that the various gods each have their respective sphere of influence and that's just how it works. Although you might argue that Agrik and Peoni are both gods, and thus capable of just about anything, in fact, Agrik is no more likely to heal than Peoni is to turn into a battle-ax weilding berserker. It's just not his schtick. It is the nature of the gods that their ways are unknowable, so trying to define the details is like trying to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin -- a pointless exercise.

IMO the greater gods have many manifestations that exist at the same time and injury to one would not extend to the others. (IMC demi-gods have only manifestation but may change shapes.)

If you are just talking about one of many manifestations or the only manifestation shape changing then the other shapes are the same manifestation with the injury. If the ability to shape change is relatively unlimited the injury might not be to the arm and might only be represented as a lessening of the aspect's mana. But IMC most gods are not unlimited shape shifters and have a number of forms they commonly take and may specialize in. If a god had two forms that had similar parts - say changing from a bat-winged demon to a wolf - then an injury to the arm of the demon might show up in some form on the wolf form. However, if the shape change was fairly extreme - say from a bat winged demon to a talking flame - then the injury might be unobservable, only be in amplitude of the flames or just in mana.

When changing forms if the god was consciously concerned with obscuring the injury obviously it would not carry through. Even in the same form the god could seem to heal the injury but could still be reduced in mana. But if they weren't concerned/paying attention, or the GM just wanted to give the players a clue, a signature injury might carry through to other shapes they may take.


That is a good example. When I was thinking before about the difference between a mortal weapon striking a god vs a godly weapon striking a god a mortal wepon might cause just cause physical injury while a divine weapon (even in the hands of a mortal) could also strike at the mana of the god.

While the theoretical possibility of a Valar/greater-god weapon that would not only injure the physical and mana of a single manifestation but would also injure some/all the other manifestations of the god. In that case - perhaps including the example of Larani striking with her sword - all the aspects and manifestations of Agrik would be injured.

It would also make sense in healing of injuries. Repairing simple physical damage as would be caused by a mortal weapon would be trivial to any god - even mortal spells like regeneration would work. Repairing damage to the god from divine weaponry though would be beyond such spells - even if they covered up the physical damage the injury to the mana would remain. A divine healer such as Peoni would be able to heal the damage or resurrect the slain aspect of Larani which not mortal spell would work.

What about a mortal struck by a divine weapon? It might be healable by normal means, such as Shek-P'var spells, but if the damage is more than physical - striking into the spiritual essence of the mortal - then the injury might not be healable by mortal spells. Even if the physical damage is fixed there could be lasting or even incurable mana injuries - perhaps like Frodo Baggins with the injury from the morgul blade that, despite all the healing skills of Gandalf and Elrond, would never fully heal.

A class of injuries and (reason they exist) that are resistant to Shek-P'var healing spells is kind of needed in HM - as something that is extra scary. Maybe priests can heal the injury when Shek-P'var spells fail, maybe not. Perhaps magic or holy/unholy weapons that prevent normal healing and/or magic healing.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Scale and Magnitude Turin.

The Lesser Gods like Agrik were created by the True Gods and are of lesser might.

The Eight Demons (Demi Gods) were created by eight drops of blood from Agrik and are of lesser might.

They are all bound by The Concordant which proscribes certain things (related to their spheres).

No Peoni definitely has Healing in her sphere.

SO WHAT?!

Odin was a god - and one with magic - and he was missing an eye. Tyr was god, and only had one hand. No one came along and healed him. After all, it would have reduced his power as a metaphor. Worse, the entire Norse pantheon basically bit the dust in the final battle. How very impressive of them.

Just because you're a god doesn't mean you are omnipotent, omniscient or omnicompetent. Especially if you are a member of a classic McPantheon that divvies up spheres of influence. Its not preposterous that a god from a pagan polytheistic pantheon wouldn't know a given spell. In fact, its so expected as to be banal.

Basically, being a god sucks. You have to live according to the idiosyncrasies and limits of human imagination.

Come on, I know you are jolly clever D-man, but that ego has just got to be reigned in a tad

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Have you all thought that perhaps we are viewing the divine thru a human lense? While to us mortals the loss of a finger or a hand or an eye would be catastrophic, to a God(dess) it may be nothing more than cosmetic damage! They are beings of mana, which we mortals percieve as physical beings because we are physical beings. What is seen as a maimed part of the divine being is only viewed as a limitation by mortal, rather than any limitation of the God(dess).

I suspect that they could change their appearance if they wish but since we are only humans, why bother? Indeed I suspect they would wear their wounds as badges of honor, especially since it declares to one and all that they have survived a battle with another divine being! Agrik displays his wounded claw to remind himself why he wishes to destroy Larani and to prove to the other Gods that he survived a one-on-one duel with Larani. Why should he care what humans think, they're only humans after all...

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...and I'm not dead yet...

I look at a wound to a god as having some effect, like the lost eye, a missing arm, etc.

Somehow they were wounded and there was damage, a loss of "mana" if you would reflected upon by the injury.

Are they as damaging as a similar injury would be to a human? No, but there is a loss of mana or some sort of permanent damage.

At least that is my take on it.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

While there may indeed be some type of "marking" denoting that at one time a divine being was "wounded/loss mana", I would assume that it might be no more debilitating than a scar on a human. Might itch occasionally but otherwise it has no real affect.

I would also assume that it could be covered up if the God(dess) decided to do so, at least to a mortal's eye. I would expect a vain Goddess such as Halea to do so, while a war God like Agrik would proudly display his scars of battle to one and all.

However to return to the original thread title: Magic on Harn. It seems as if the practisioners of the mystic arts have decided not to flaunt their powers in front of the muggles. They have rules to that effect which are more strictly enforced in Melderyn and Emelrene than they are in the hinterlands of the tribal lands. In your Harn you can dial it up to a much more powerful and magical world, in mine I'll leave it at uncommon and practised only covertly.

After all even the muggles can get nasty if they decide that you are seriously dangerous.

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...and I'm not dead yet...

This might be a good place to re-iterate the rules of the Shek-Pvar:



#1 of course is where a Kings "Vizier" for lack of a better word would have to be careful. Is he the Vizier because of his ability with his "art"? Or are there other reasons he is a Vizier? If he is a respected teacher this could make sense, but to be placed as a vizier because of his use of magic for the King's benefit seems a clear violation of rule #1.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....