Just a few ideas - I am not comfortable with the strength of the guilds on Harn/Lythia - and have thought of ways to reduce their strength. They are far more powerful than Terran guilds ever were, and seem a hindrance in some ways on Harnic economy.

One thought is to make them have some influence in cities - but little or no influence in rural areas.

Also, I think certain guilds would have some power still - those that are predominantly "urban" in nature.

Others may have little power or be non existant - particularily if a predominantly rural industry.

The issue with making changes like this - there will be still those with guild "skills" if not guild members. For instance, serfs may have skills in hideworking.

Also, a Manor Lords "staff" may well include many with guild type skills, to supervise work such as the above mentioned Hideworker.

I'd think most serfs would have one if not a few guild type skills, but no more than journeymen.

To reflect this in the occupational charts, many serfs would probably get another skill or two or three, based on a random roll (and based on the skillset needs of the manor as a whole).

This is in a way similar to the development of Ivinian manors.

YOu would still have guild members with guild skill sets, but predominantly in urban areas.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Keep in mind most of the economy would be involved in the pastoral economies of the manors, thus not involving the Guilds.
Caldeth

The peasants don't need extra skills. When generating new peasant PCs remember to take one or two Option Points in useful skills: Textilecraft for all those women spinsters, for example, or milling for the illicit use of the hand quern. Trapping for a little extra protein. Fishing for those with the chance to help out on a local fishing boat.
Most of these folks would have only enough ML to act as apprentices, if that.

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Laboro diem, carpe noctem.

I think this is looking at it still a bit too much from the Harnic guild mind set.

I think you would have several occupations and or skills that are very uncommon to the General public - Alchemist, Apothecary, glass workers for a few examples.

But skills such as carpentry, hideworking, even to a lesser extent masonry and metal working would be not uncommon skills, and some serfs/free farmers could be very skilled in some of these areas, probably averaging closer to a journeyman than an apprentice.

The skills they have would not be totally random either - it would depend upon the needs of the household, and/or more likley the needs of the manor.

For example - a manor that is proportionately heavy in pasture and cattle would likley also be heavy in those with skills attributable to a hideworker.

What I have found interesting in reading about terran middle ages serfs - most had some other skills. If a mine was nearby, many worked the mines in addition to fulfilling their feudal obligations.

Ceramics, though not the accompanying skills of glassworking and mineralogy would be very common as well.

There may be some who oversee certain operations for the manor lord - such as hideworking, timberwork, maybe some buidling work - who would have high ML's in these areas.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Urban or rural poor certainly will have some skills that are, on the hârnic market, usually addressed by guilds. Keep in mind: having a skill is one thing - being allowed to sell the skill or the products of that skill on the market is another.

Using the reference of medieval terra, there were defined areas in which the exclusivity of guild products were enforced. These were often defined, in the form of a legal document, as a number of miles radius around a city in which no non-guild people may sell goods or services that are the priveledge of one of the guilds (in medieval German speaking countries this was called the "Bannmeile"). the next question is, of course, how could such a law be enforced? In fact this could be a hook upon which guild power is controlled. For example, the lord of the shire or city may reserve the exclusive right to enforce such law through his men-at-arms, thereby making guilds in the city partly dependent on him to prevent non-guild artisans from dumping their goods on the market. The further away you are from cities and larger villages, however, the more difficult it becomes to enforce such guild priveledges; but then again, the profit in those out-of-the-way areas is perhaps marginal at best and therefore less attractive to the guilds.

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HJC

I'm coming into this thread a bit cold and I haven't done much research, but from memory, nothing in HârnWorld canon about the Mangai prevents anyone who creates items normally subject to Mangai law from using themselves. Peasants can grind their own grain, bake their own bread, weave their own cloth...

My take on the matter is that they cannot sell these goods (or services) in the official markets of town. But there would most certainly be a sub-economy based on barter and exchange in, and between, villages. Those inland from the coast or more than a day's walk from a major river would barter for fish (salted, smoked, etc.) perhaps with home-ground flour or a bolt of home-woven cloth. A new house in a village isn't build by a guilded craftsman, but by a community effort.

Like the Banneile mentioned by hjclaus above, the guilds are relatively powerless outside of urban areas. Of course, the larger the urban community, the more distant their influence would be felt, but beyond a certain point they simply don't know. And probably don't care, either. The amount of money in rural areas just isn't enough to warrant policing the law. I don't see the guilds being omnipotent, just extremely powerful in urban areas. As was the case in real life (London's haberdashers, Paris's butchers).

But even in major centres like Tashal and Kiban there would be a lively sub-economy. Neighbours swapping an excess of cabbages grown in one garden for a surfeit of freshly butchered pork, for example. Actually, that probably isn't a good example because it deals with foodstuffs and isn't really subject to Mangai rules (except you couldn't sell them at market without a proper license). But it's conceivable that a spinster might swap a pair of knitted gloves and a shirt for a few hours labour rebuilding the wall of her house, isn't it? Swapping some goods that the Clothier's Guild supposedly has a monopoly on for some crafting skills that the Woodcrafter's Guild supposedly has a monopoly on. Now, the clothes probably aren't as good as a Clothier might sell, and the wall isn't as well-built as a certified Woodcrafter might build, but that's beside the point. Goods subject to Mangai law were exchanged for services subject to the same law. And no-one the wiser except the parties involved.

To be honest, I've never really agreed with the negative comments about the supposed power of the Mangai. Yes, in Earth history such organisation didn't occur until a later time period than Harn supposedly equates, but that's not the point (and who's to say we Earthlings weren't late developing this concept, anyway). While the Mangai may have made these agreements with heads of state all over Lythia, they don't—and can't—enforce the law everywhere. And one thing humans are good at is working around something that inconvenienes them. It's human nature to ignore or evade what makes life more difficult.

In fact, humans are so contrary they'll sometimes expend MORE effort figuring out a way around a restriction than that needed to just go with the flow.

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I agree that Guilds within Harn/Lythia are more powerful than they otherwise might be, and ever since I first read about them, I've looked at ways to changing them.

The first thing to understand is that attempting to enforce some guild privilege, much like any protectionist scheme is incredibly expensive. You have to pay people to find those who are violating your privileges, which while more efficient in larger population centers, would be a losing proposition in rural areas where the people are spread out.

In the long run in a true Free Market environment while protectionist systems may rise up, it won't take them long to collapse. The only way such a scheme can perpetuate in the long run is if the cost of enforcement of such scheme was offloaded to someone else, such as the state and inevitably the tax-payer.

To take an example, slavery in the past was only ever economically viable because the state paid for the slave catchers. If your slaves ran away, all you needed to do was contact the local slave catchers who would do the work for you. Without state slave catchers, a slave owner would need to pay out of his own pocket for every man who worked for him to ensure the slaves wouldn't run away. To use an real-world example, slavery in I believe Brazil practically ended overnight when the state announced that they would no longer be catching runaways.

What I can see occurring is that representatives of the Mangai who wanted to establish guild privileges in an area would, much like it is done nowadays, is for Mangai representatives to "wine and dine" and/or bribe those who have the power to tax the locals which would enable the funding of such protectionist measures.

In larger population centers, the Mangai could rouse the greed in the various tradesmen in enticing them that such protectionist schemes are for their benefit, in addition to bribing the Lord or town council. The Lord(s) sees that this is what a vocal minority of the people want, and with enough pressure from the Mangai and tradesmen, such schemes would get passed. The cost of such scheme would be easier to hide (spread out across more people) that few may not notice for a time that their taxes are rising. If those who benefit see their income double or triple, they may not care if their taxes go up a fraction of what they were.

In rural areas where the manors are small, and there's few tradesmen who would benefit from such protections I imagine that the Mangai would see it as a losing proposition. Considering that in the feudal system there are contracts which spell out the feudal obligations of lord and serf, the increased expense would fundamentally fall to those who don't have such feudal contacts. A whole lot easier when there's more people to spread the costs of enforcement to. A close-knit community would resist such attempts, unless there was some sort of economic warfare at work where nearby guilded towns prevented people from non-guilded manors from selling what they produced in the town.