Well, technically it could also be that the King has appointed him because of his art; which would mean that it is the King; not the Pvarist that has made a place for him above the Kvikir. If the Pvarist was innocent of all intent to be appointed thus but the King asked/insisted; then it would be OK according to the code. You cannot help the ignorance or generosity of others. This sequence of events might however fall under bringng the scorn of the Kvikir on the Pvarists..especially to those jealous of the appointment.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

LOL, you may be right here Peter, I'll change my statement to it is an UNclear violation of the code

My guess is this is something that would not be uncommon among the Shek-Pvar, and they probably have their schools of thought as to what is a violation and what is not.

They will probably keep a close eye on this one though - the Vizier would have a position very open to the public eye. And a "I've been asked to take this postion, and to keep everyone happy I will accept" that is similar to the tactics used by the emperor on Star Wars would not be considered to be following Shek-Pvar code.

And I could see where much overt magic (that which would impact many, parlor tricks would probably not be a concern) would very much be frowned upon by the White Hand - after all, if the Mage provides a lot of overt magic assistance to win a battle, he's the hero of one group of Kvikir, but scorned by other Kvikir.

I could see being a Vizier type often being a short term assigment - the White Hand relaizing that the mage is becoming too high profile and some scorn beginning to develop - then urging the mage to move on and go low profile, lest there be concerns that he may be violating the code, and being told that that is the path to becoming a renegade.

Would be some pretty interesting roleplaying though.

Vizier - I must be leaving, my King

King - Why? You have done so much good for me and the kingdom. Where will you go?

Vizier - Why I cannot say, nor can I say where, just that I must leave.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

If an official (or unofficial position in a Government) breaks this rule then some of the CoE should be looking over their shoulders and possibly anyone with a place on the board of most Chantries.
Basically I don't think that it means that at all. If you use magic in order to gain the appointment then you break the rule, if you're appointed because you can use magic then you haven't.
Just my 2d's worth.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

As far as the COE goes, I see your point.

But as far as being in a supervisory position in Chantry politics - no. They are not making a place the Kvikir by being on a chantry board - it is their own internal politics, in essence they are making a place above other mages, not above the Kvikir.



I'll adress the COE appointment here. They are not being appointed because they know magic - they are appointed because they give wise council. Being a COE member does not REQUIRE the ability to use magic. So I think a COE appointment is OK, providing they do not use magic to influence/get the appointment.

I think it gets sticky though with overt practices of magic. If someone is using their magic in a way that causes many to realize they are a mage, and they maintain their position through this use of magic, there will be an issue IMO.

I would think that mages in positions of authority try their best to not overtly practice magic. There may be all kinds of rumors, but as long as it's predominantly rumours it's OK. If there is to much attention brought by overt use of magic, it's probably time for them to move on.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

In some realities using expert sorcery to climb the mage ladder would be seen as a CV enhancer. In others the hesitation to use it would be seen as a feather in the old wizarding cap. Depends how zen you want your mages

I will note that that in literature; that Gandalf, Harry Potter to a degree; and, ahem, Rincewind...all do rather well career wise because of their hesitation to get all whizz bang. Although in Rincewinds case it is inability rather than wisdom...

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

I think the Shek Pvar are even more powerful than the omnipotent harnic guilds. After all, the Harnic guilds only control most of Lythia - The laws of the Shek Pvar apparently even influence wizards of other fantasy millieus

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I was being flippant when I mentioned the Chantry boards. It's all about the wording of the rule.

If you're appointed to any position because of your knowledge, be it mundane or magical then that's ok because you're not using the art to gain the position (by influencing others etc.) it's purely down to your own personality and perceived knowledge.

Of course if your Chantry doesn't approve of you taking up the position then that's probably another thing because you could be technically violating rule 2
Which agrees with what I said.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

True. However, your point was that if they were put in their position due to the fact they are a magic user, that is OK. I look at it differently from strictly that vein.

If the COE was restricted only to magic users, then they would be putting theselves above the Kvikir, because they rule Melderyn.

Since the COE does not require one to practice magic, that is another story.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Skeeve from the Myth-series has only 3 minor spells - and a great PR agent. Most of what they do is acomplished with little magic but he becomes one of the most famous "Wizards" across several dimensions.

Growing up in a wizardly family in Harn their kids are often taught to use magic sparingly. A mage is only a CF misfire away from being a greasy spot on the pavement. Save the spells for the things you can't accomplish any other way.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

As I said, it's all semantics. I read that, in it's simplest form, as meaning that you shouldn't cast spells to rise above your fellow magic users. Anything else goes.

Although I think a sensible magic user would at least consult with his or her chantry before accepting any position in a Kvikir government. The chantry may even see it as advantageous. Subsidised research and a voice in the right ears that'll allow the rest of them to be left alone in peace.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

Actually in its simplest form it says "you can't do anything that makes normals mad at us." "nor can you use your magic to get around that or put yourself over 'them'."

It kind of implies that everything you do - magic or not - is constrained by not making Kvikir scorn Shek-P'var.

I guess in the second part you can say that 'them' is your fellow Shek-P'var though in context it obviously means the Kvikir. The first part though is pretty clear.

"Magic users" may be a reasonable extension of Shek-P'var in many cases but "your brothers" most likely is the Shek-P'var brotherhood rather than "anyone who uses magic".

Simply being a mage and entering into government could give the impression that a mage is abusing their powers to gain control - whether they actually are or not. Since anyone could raise a fuss over that and it would cause trouble for the Shek-P'var a Shek-P'var taking a position of authority in government would most likely be forbidden by the Shek-P'var laws.

The Council of Eleven is an advisory body and thus has no direct authority to abuse they advise the King (and no one knows they exist anyway so it isn't a problem anyway). Similarly being the court Master of Esoteric Knowledge is advisory with no powers to abuse.

But a mage who was made a constable would immediately be in a position where (whether or not they ever used their powers) they could be accused of being biased in favor of mages or using their powers in unfair ways (helpful or not) they could "Bring not the scorn of the Kvikir upon thy brothers".

Even just kicking dirt in a peasent's face and saying "ha-ha, I'm a Shek-P'var what'ya gonna' do about it?" could easily "Bring not the scorn of the Kvikir upon thy brothers". Doubly so if the peasent then kicked your ass and walked off saying what wimps Shek-P'var are.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

The Baron of Zuilos in Melderyn studied at a Cherafir chantry in his youth and is said to be a skilled Savoryan Shek-Pvar. There is no mention that I am aware of that indicates that this has caused him any problems with his vassals or with the Shek-Pvar, so it is left up to individual GMs. I thought there were other examples of people like this but I can't find them now.

A Baronary is a hereditary position. If he became Baron in the normal course of things it would be nonsense to accuse him of obtaining his position thru magic, and Melderyn is relatively open minded about such things.

If the Baronary were a contested position and he obtained the position over others just as qualified there could be accusations of magical interference even in Melderyn. More commonly what if it were an appointed position somewhere outside of Melderyn.

But as long as nobody is making a fuss about it they aren't violating the 1st law.


You can certainly play it different ways but reading it directly you can fall a foul of the 1st law for doing anything that puts the Shek-P'var in a bad light.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

Well, he was a younger brother who gained the barony only because his older brothers drowned in a shipwreck. I am sure some people thought that awfully convenient, although probably not as many as if he had been an Odivshe mage.

Melderyn has more than a few talented people in that position. Soren Halwyn, Baron of Glenoth is a Jmorvian Shek-P'var and his liege, Earl Thabel, is a talented Psionist.
The Elgar of Elavona in Shorkyne, Kastres Idara, cousin to the Telkora of Vadone could be a Shek-P'var as well.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

I was being lazy when I used "Magic users" rather than "Skek-P'var", all those extra shift buttons needed to type it whilst I was on my way out the door.

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

You're right, I do take 'them' to mean Shek-P'var and I could be wrong. I disagree that's it's obvious though. I think it can be read either way, and there-in lies the problem.
Regardless, I don't think that it's beyond the realms of possibility for, as an example, the King of Kaldor to appoint a Master of Esoterica and for that individual to be a member of the Shek-P'var.
As I said before I think he or she would be wise to obtain the permission of their Chantry first. In fact I think that it would be more likely that the King or his agents, would approach a Chantry and ask them to provide a suitable candidate. It may be that as a condition the Chantry would ask for the appointment to be covert and that the individual would be given some other title. Court Astrologer perhaps? (Workol anyone?)

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"You're gonna cut off the Dragon's what?"

We are also assuming that the Code of the Shek-P'var as presented in 720TR has not been modified over the centuries due to "rule-lawyering" (God I'm such a geek sometimes). I could easily imagine that the original code developed during Malderyn's Eldritch Period was modified (or entirely re-written) after Lothrim the Foulspawner. It would probably also of been tinkered with after the Court Astrologer Workol managed to deliver Corani Empire into the ashcan of history. I'm sure it has also been reappraised countless times before and since.

Harn is best considered as a living breathing world of fallible people. They try to manage they're lives as best they can but they are limited in the technology they have, the information they possess and the mindset they work with. They don't have computers with spreadsheets or modern economic theory or even scientific theory as such. They can be blinded by greed or pride or cultural traditions that may limit how they even think about a problem. They consider that Democracy is for Barbarians and the even the theories of capitalism are only vaguely understood by the emergent merchant class. BTW since the primary institute that studies anything like an economic theory (modern or not) is the Halean Church, the subject is unlikely to have any respectability associated with it.

Basically what I'm saying is that even if you consider Robin's work as sacrocanct canon, you shouldn't expect that everything he wrote applies to the entirity Kethiran history. It's a snapshot of 720TR Lythia, mostly about the island of Harn. He intentionally left it open to interpertation so that we could creatively "fill in the blanks" which is one of this mileaus greatest joys. Give it a little room to breath, gentlemen...

Ahem, rant over

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...and I'm not dead yet...

Amen, brother.

Good points. The specific laws of the Shek Pvar may be more like a term used for the US Constitution, a "Living Breathing Document". Of course with the Shek Pavar, this could even be literal

And Lothrim and Workhol (First name Andy? ) could have been two of the times the Shek Pvar really needed to reassess the code specifics.

I would think the Shek Pvar code is a bit more detailed than what we have for the code - the brief code in canon is more of an overview. THe real code might be like the Pirate Code Book that Captain Jack Sparrow reads from

As far as political appointments - I'd think the Chantry should be notified. And they obviously may allow this, though there would probably be some requirements such as keeping a low profile, at least from the aspect of using overt magic. Rumors to a point are probably OK as even non-magic users may be rumoured to be mages, but they should refrain from showing any true evidence. And if one acquires too much noteriety from their use of magic, the Chantry may inform them that they should leave that position.

Hereditary Positions are different, but the Shek Pvar probbaly do not want to see someone again overtly using magic and bringing upon the scorn and fear of the people.

Perhaps a bit like the fear of the Deryni in the Deryni novels, though not quite to that extent, though this could vary by location and time.

I'd think Melderyn of course would be less concerned about things like this, probably because the common people (Kvikir) are less fearful of magic and accept it more.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

I imagine there are any number of rules but I think the 5 Laws of the Shek-P'var are as intended.

Kind of like the 10 commandments. While they have "The 10 Commandments" there are 613 commandments in the (Jewish?) Torah - 365 negative commandments and 248 positive ones.

I would think they have lots of rules - and even the chantries each have their own rules - but I think the Shek-P'var "5 laws" have a special place.

---

Actually the books says they have "few rules":


(I really never cared for "the oath of peace" thing in HM1 it was just "THE SHEK-PVAR CODE")

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I agree, treating the Shek P'var like the Deryni seems like a natural fit. Secretive and covert in their use of magic, always looking over their shoulder waiting for the Church (Larani?) to start an inquistion looking into witchcraft. They may have the King covering their back right now but it only takes one highly religious monarch to upset the applecart.

Of course any number of unfortunate events might stop such a heir from coming to power. But I'm sure the White Hand would be loathed to do so, much like intelligence agencies that are loathed to assassinate troublesome individuals...

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...and I'm not dead yet...

At least in Melderyn the CoE practically raises the child and may even have some say over whether he/she becomes king.

Of course, he could have a post crowning religious rebirth.

Come to think of it the King in the Deryni novels was a human granted Deryni magic powers upon his coranation and the Deryni involved also raises and educates the king as a child - which makes the king a natural ally.

In effect that is also very like Melderyn.

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Member of the CoE (Council of Elitists)

I think just as important as the King is the local everyday people's "tolerance" of magic users.

Melderyn of course would have the highest such tolerance on Harn.

If enough people are fearful or hate magic users, you may say a "storm Castle Frankenstein with pitchforks" reaction.

I think the idea of "Bring not the scorn of the Kvikir" takes into account things like this - they expect the magic users to be aware of things like this, and prefer their mages to quietly make an exit before this happens as opposed to fireballing a host of angry villagers.

A King can help change peoples attitiudes somehwat with how magic practicioners are treated within the kingdom, it appears Harnic kingdoms are at lest marginally tolerant with the only "magic crimes" being related to peoples souls.

Of course, look at the Salem witch trials - it does not take much for the common people to claim their souls are being possessed, even it absence of any true evidence.

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....