The plot of my campaign may result in the PC getting land. I generate a manor using Harn Manor. (See Attached). I wanted to the income to be "minimally adequate" if they just sat on their haunches (ie payed their feudal duty in cash) and "OK" if they provided service (ie "adventure hooks). The resulting manor gave too much income even after scuttage. Now I figure I can just raise the feudal cost or decrease the %age of the land that belongs to the lord. However, I thought I would see if I didn't make a mistake in generating the manor?

His household seems a bit bare. A few palfreys would be a necessity (you don't ride you warhorse for travel). And a squire and a man-at-arms or two, as well as a few more domestics, would be appropriate. And having a few distant relations come for extended visits (i.e. move in) now that he is a landholder could also suck up some funds.

Land quality, fief Index and Trade Index are all favourable (ie above 1!). It looks like a desirable manor to me . To back up what has been said before; such a profitable manor would require a better show in the household department

I have come across this with Harmanor though; where it seems easy to generate wealthy manors. I have not checked your numbers properly BTW.

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Well, the manor is already known to be located in the main agricultural area of the kingdom. So I can't see why it would be poor land. OTOH, it is one of the oldest parts of the kingdom, which would be a good reason for a high %age of the land being the peasant (I noticed the income is lower if the %age of demense acres is low).

The players don't do much mounted combat and, after having lost horses on campaigns, have decided they aren't worth the cost. I can probably require one because it is "expected", maybe two. I don't want to over-do that excuse.

As to number household. This isn't actually Harn, and I've already established that (at least for Baron and up) is to have a Chamberlain (domestic affairs) and Senechal ("foreign" affairs). (I know that I'm not useing the terms historically accurately). But in the upload I wanted to follow the rules to check to see if I got them right. So I planning on making the Chamberlain a more important (and higher paid) member of the household, which will help (but only in part). What relatives the PCs have, and how they treat them, isn't something as a GM I want to dictate. As to domestics, it says one per noble? (They don't eat up a lot of money in any case). What would be appropriate. (The PC may feel "why do I need all these servants, I'll fire some." but part of me thinks that when they show up, the servants will already be there, and that traditionally they are expected to keep them?).

In the end, however, since the feudal fees are not established, I can make them what I want, within reason, and I think I can just make them high enough to cover the "excess"? Also, I think a lower %age of demense acres is justifiable?

Of course a lord can pretty much luch live like a pauper whilst earning like a Baron However from what I recall there was a specific mechanic in Harnmanor (in a side bar I think) that related expenditure to social standing (with consequences +ve and -ve)..so as well as it being a 'social' requirement the writers added a mathematical incentive to not making a profit I think the carrot was access to court/king...so the the 'excuse' becomes more...real as it were. Also if I recall donations to the church came into this..and 'gifts' to leiges etc..

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

One option is to make the PC a Bailiff which drastically reduces manorial income. What about his family (parents, siblings and other kin before he marries? If he has a younger sister or sisters perhaps he can contribute to their dowries helping to make better marriages and political alliances for the family.

Just because he is taxed on 1,200 acres does not mean his fief is 1,200 acres it could easily be 1,080 acres based on the initial survey. [The reverse could also be true possessing 1,320 or so acres and taxed on 1,200 acres]

Waste acreage can be increased.

As a bailiff he can be fired at anytime but his Lord can expect him to keep up "appearances" as part of being his vassal and he is a reflection of his lord. The Lord can always make expensive extended visits to his manor or marry the PC off to a gentlewoman with a large extended family requiring support that is one reason a fief was granted to support a family.

Most manor lords have a family of five (husband, wife, three children), lady in waiting for wife, squire for lord, riding horses with support for all. They are expensive to support at 1,900 d for the children and 2,400 d for the adults without factoring in the cost of that extra servant for each.

Many support other relations to some degree (Possibly a kinsman or woman priest or herald) who may act as the manor chamberlain position you noted.

Most employ a few or more bonded masters like an Ostler and Clothier or a few permanent men at arms.

The default premise is conspicuous consumption particularly if he is single and looking to make an advantageous marriage.

If he is a young knight he probably enjoys hunting so a full time dog boy and or falconer could be in order.

If he enjoys tournaments a bonded ostler should result in better quality mounts. Doubtful he always wins.

That 16,000 d goes away pretty quick with an average family of five, a lady in waiting and a squire leaving one with a sparse privy purse. (Wife, lady and squire 7,700d plus basically another 1,000 d for three servants and the three children 5,700 d plus another 1,000d for three more servants)

Thanks for all the input. A lot of this is already constrained (I'm taking an existing campaign in a new direction, not starting a new one) and I don't tend to be too heavy handed on what my players do. So what I think I will do is...

-Drop the fief size (if 1200 acres is a knight's fee for standard holding, custom could easily have fiefs on good land be smaller).
-Similarly I may double the feudal payments (again, if in richer areas, lords may collect more).
-And I will increase the number of households (higher population density) and thus decrease the demesne holdings.

That should let me tweak it to where I need.

Rather than be heavy handed with your PC's let your NPC's do that for you....

Let them be introduced to other NPC's and have them says something like "Ah your the baliff with only one horse!" or ""How come you only have 3 servants?" with the NPC's sniggering as they walk off to go and talk to someone more important.

On question about the rules. Harn manor calculates the Labor Obligation of the fief holders, and the labor needed to work manor lands, in days. It then uses that difference directly to determine the cost of labor hired. This presumes that 1 days manual labor costs 1 pence?

I cannot remember? Sounds about right. Does it seperate the labour needed into demesne and rented land? Because it is imaginable that some rented land is unused (ie general labour shortage) but not really that the lords land does not get used.

I guess the normal situation is for Labour available to exceed all labour needed. The excess used for assarting, fief maintenance, Lords private projects, etc. It just disappears if not used I guess; but a sensible Lord factors in potential sickness and a bit of slack as not to drive his fief workers too hard.

What happens in Harnmanor if Labour needed exceeds labour available? Can you buy outside labour? Or does the land just not get used?

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Plots and schemes are the same thing..

Also keep in mind that the privy purse could also be considered kind and not pence, you can consider dividing the privy purse by 2 reflecting sales cost. You could even have adventures trying to have the Lord sell the goods and perhaps get a higher return.
Caldeth

labor cost is 1.25 pence a day. The Lord provides a noon meal.
The cost does not equate to availability. Most of the manors I've worked up did not have enough labor available for hire.

28 families?
Very heavily populated manor. The form shows 14000 labor days available, but craftsmen and the priest should be excluded from the labor pool. The farmers may also be excluded from the pool. Yeoman labor is generally taken as military service and not part of the pool, but I didn't see any Yeoman.
I didn't see any labor for the assart or for the upkeep either.

Labor has always been the limiting factor in any manors I've worked up.
And the household has no military forces, not enough cooks and domestics, and political expenses are very low.

Not according to HarnManor. This is the labor needed to work all the land, including tenant land. They may not be working demesne land but they have to wok their own land. That is what the 500 times each household reflects.

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Roy Denton - the title says Baron, but Queen for a year. (Cheselyne I)

"Nathamh na hoibre an t-eolas"
(Knowledge comes through practice)

I just finished generating every manor for Kaldor, minus the fortified settlements and Tashal but including the abbeys, using my manor generator.

It turns out Kaldor has 1,169,960 gross acres and cannot use 158,506 acres due to labor shortages or about 14% of the acreage.

This works out to about 1,825.06 households.

However, it also turns out that Kaldor also has a significant number of manors that have excess labor. This is equal to about 1,264.81 households.

In other words, if the lords cooperated, highly unlikely, then Kaldor would only be short about 560.25 households. Or, they have lots of room to colonize new areas of the kingdom.

As someone mentioned earlier, labor is 1d per manday. the labor cost is the cost for additional labor above the obligated labor to work the demesne only.

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Roy Denton - the title says Baron, but Queen for a year. (Cheselyne I)

"Nathamh na hoibre an t-eolas"
(Knowledge comes through practice)

BTW, where is the manor located, that was not on the form?

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Roy Denton - the title says Baron, but Queen for a year. (Cheselyne I)

"Nathamh na hoibre an t-eolas"
(Knowledge comes through practice)

Good to keep in mind.

28 families is what you get by the formula in the book (Cleared Acres x Land Quality/40).

The book gives obligate labor per household. I didn't see where it broke down the total labor pool for households, so I'm not sure how to exclude it? And since the labor pool is the labor need to work all the land (regardless of ownership, not just the lords lands) shouldn't the farmers be included?

I did have labor of fief maintenance (3402), I just forgot to write it down. I'm assuming the PC won't have assart.

Most versions did have a couple yeomen (not sure why this one didn't). BTW, where is "light foot" and "medium foot" defined? The servants in the book are a chamberlain, cook, alewife, and one domestic per noble (which might be on bachelor PC). Since there wasn't a son, I added an Ostler and, for outside reasons, I added a priest. So I think that is right? The political expenses were 1d/acre as in the book

Well, it will be just south of the capital (a day and 1/2) in a Barony that sits on a large river. The rest of the details are TBD. I'm thinking the holding itself may be on the river so I can give them a fisher family or two.

In the book, the cost of labor hired is just the difference between Demesne Acres x8 and the labor obligation. Should this be multiplied by 1.25?

Labor is 1d a day, not 1.25d, unless its your pHarn.

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Roy Denton - the title says Baron, but Queen for a year. (Cheselyne I)

"Nathamh na hoibre an t-eolas"
(Knowledge comes through practice)

Manor 27 sidebar The Familia paid 1d per day plus a noon meal and ale
We use 1.25 pence per day to account for the meal and ale
We also charge .25 pence a day for each day of obligated labor used, they also get a meal and ale.

Labor pool is all availabel labor, some MAY be available for hire.
The craftsmen and the priest are generally not available for hire. They have better things to do than work the fields. Although a Peonian may chip labor in to help some of the cottar families or the sick. The craftsmen may even hire labor out from under the Lord. It can make for some interesting conflicts.

That can also be counted as part of the fief maintenance cost, which is already part of the costs included in the rules.

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Roy Denton - the title says Baron, but Queen for a year. (Cheselyne I)

"Nathamh na hoibre an t-eolas"
(Knowledge comes through practice)

I ran your manor through my copy of the Manorlord spreadsheet and came up with different numbers. The lord had even more income.