Which RPG system / world do you dislike the most? And for what reasons? Maybe you can save other gamers a few bucks with your opinions / experiences...

Please remain factual - this is not supposed to be a ranting!

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Steer me straight, O German one.
O flamer of mail, O Carver in Stone...

Spartan on HârnChat

Well, if you have fun playing it, there really is no bad roleplayin....URK! <gurglegurglegasppppppppp....>

Can't say I much care for Tunnels & Trolls or the various incarnations of the Storyteller system, but my opinions of evil towards those rules aren't really that strong. Given the right GM, I'll play anything.

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"Rules are GOOD. Rules help control the fun!" -Monica Geller, Friends

I liked ShadowRun really much, but the new rules destroy the whole game and the new ideas destroy the atmosphere....

All in all SR3 is a real disapointment in my eyes.

Like you really need to ask me that...



Nick the Lemming

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One of Harn's Chosen

A happy VHEMT volunteer

http://WWW.VHEMT.ORG

While there are games out there that its pretty difficult to deny are genuinely bad, most of them are of the free-PDF-posted-on-the-internet sort, too poor quality to actually get published. Of the games that are properly published, especially if they then survive long enough to have more than a couple of supplements, I don't think there are any which are really bad. After all, if they've survived, somebody must enjoy playing them, and isn't that rather the point of gaming?

Of course, there are games I don't personally like, but that's not say they're bad games. I'd cite D&D, Rolemaster and Harnmaster as games I've actually played and didn't like (or, in the case of D&D, wouldn't like now, even if it entertained me as a teenager). Harnmaster, though, has this really great world that, for me at least, makes up for the rules - I don't know if any of you have heard of it...?

I think that I've been fortunate that most systems I've actually dealt with have been decent ones.

My only real dislike has to be ... [sigh - it's about as cliché as it gets] D&D.

My beefs are with the "canon" or "baseline" D&D style: Powergaming supported by a reward/development system based on slaying things.

I'm fully aware that there are ways of using the system that will lessen these concerns (leaving only the inherent inflexibility of level packages - although 3rd ed. has lessend this evil a bit), but I've unfortunately never encountered a D&D GM who did it any other way, and they usually fell into the Players <-> GM = an antagonistic relationship, rather than, as Mark McKinnon says in the Tri-Stat manifesto, a cooperative relationship.

D&D to me is insidious in these regards, because - as necessary is - rules, GM and published adventures all reinforce the same values, and thus create a very strong vector for the style if used that way.

It takes awareness and a sure hand to work around these problems with this system should one wish to do so.

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Harniac. That simple
I'm intolerant of intolerance. Intolerant people find that very hard to tolerate.

For me, even if for a lot of gamers it's an heresy, this is D&D. All editions of it.

D&D was the first. Ok, it's entirely to its credit. But, it's too hold ! New games were created with more realistic rules and an easier use. D&D survive is for me therapeutic eagerness.

(A)D&D. I can't help it. It is at war with everything that I stand for: low fantasy, down-to-earth characters, human vulnerability, deadly combat, little magic, few monsters, skill development by use, no Hit Points, no Levels, no Character Classes...

I've had fun playing (and even GMing) D&D and AD&D but I don't think I'd ever be able to play it "seriously." The worst thing is that it's just not balanced - especially in the later phases when characters start to resemble gods instead of men/dwarves/elves/whatnot. Also, the character classes go topsy-turvy rather quickly: the weedy mage who has been dragged along for so long suddenly evolves into a Flame-Mage of terrible powers that is capable of wiping out the party many times over.

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"The greatest sport ever: the Biathlon - cross-country skiing interspersed with rounds of shooting Russians." - HierophantX on Finnish winter sports

Systems

I love Glorantha, next to Hârn it’s my favourite world. I loved RuneQuest. I want to like HeroQuest, I do, I really do. I’ve even bought the rules and made an effort to start a campaign. But I just do not like the system. The system seems contrary and slewed towards super-powerful characters. Also, the system is too ‘fuzzy’ for me. I prefer definites like ‘you’ve taken a slashing wound to the forearm to fudges like ‘you’re losing the fight.’ Trotsky likes the system, good for him, but for me, I'd still be playing Glorantha if the rules had not changed

My fellow Glorantha GM (Yes I still run a RuneQuest game, about once a year) converted his campaign from RuneQuest to Pendragon rules, just about acceptable, but he then converted again, to Hero Wars. He now admits that it was a mistake. Another player (& a friend of 20 years), when rolling a new character for me, admitted he 'doesn’t like the system much.' This is someone who will play ANYTHING. This is the ONLY game in he doesn’t like.

All of my group of players voted against moving from RuneQuest to HeroQuest. Unanimous, we're only 5 middle aged blokes and not a representative sample of gamers at large, but we've all been playing for 20+ years. Really, give this one a miss.

But, Glorantha remains a magnificent game world.

Everyone has mentioned (A)D&D so I don’t need to add my voice, but is you want another really awful game you could look at Lejendary Adventures by E Gary Gygax (should that be E Jary Jyjax?). Just download the quickstart Rules (can’t remember where I found them) for one of the most badly thought out and completely unplayable systems ever. This system has three stats with different ranges and has more confusing jargon than any system I've seen other than, possibly, Danjerous Journeys.

Gameworlds

I never liked the world of Twilight 2000. Post holocaust Europe is not my ideal adventuring location anyway, but there was something distinctly unpleasant (and in my opinion inaccurate and U.S imperialistic) in this setting.

The Warhammer World. Almost, but not quite Europe. The main differences? The existence of huge renaissance cities scattered haphazardly in the midst of huge chaos & monster infested forests, the complete lack of any farmlands to support the cities. WFRP is a pretty daft system too. amazing then, that so many of the scenarios were good.

BTW the worst scenario I've ever seen was in Dragon Magazine 100. It had the 'humourous' idea of teleporting a standard DnD adventuring party to present day London. Written by an American who had done no research and published at a time when TSR had a UK office (who either did not see this or were told to shut up).

Highlights included:
The fact that the UK now uses a decimal system of coinage 10 pennies = 1 shilling, 10 shillings = £1
The amusing idea that a fantasy DnD character, when faced with a car would jump in and try to drive it, but they'd use the door on the left side, not realising that in britain the steering wheel is on the other side. (what????)
The routine arming of police officers (still, thankfully, not the case)
The local parks being filled with two types of people, Mary Poppins style nannies and Oliver Twist style stret urchins. This is without a doubt the worst scenario I've ever seen. I can usually salvage something, but not from this mess.
BTW Tomb of Horror comes a close second. 200 ways to arbitrarily kill your players. Why?

Thank you for this cathartic experience.

Neil

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Uxbridge English Dictionary:
Iconography: Filthy Byzantine pictures

I started with D&D then moved on to AD&D. We've tested Runequest and Warhammer only briefly, played MERP and stuck on to Rolemaster and occassional CP2020 and GURPS with various present-day near-future hacks for years -- until HârnMaster and HârnWorld. But I am not even forty.

As one grows there are more social dynamics one understands and would like to see in the game. There are complex (or realistic-like, even) characters one would like to build and they might not fall into any of the pre-defined stereotypes of the rulebook. As the players get older, there might be less need for published adventures, as the elaborately designed PC:s provide an excellent resource for adventure hooks in themselves with their colourful backgrounds. Hah hah haa. Haa... uh.

If a game does not support the 'realistic' dynamics or characters it is in my view bad. In a way, if I don't "believe" it, or "cannot suspend my disbelief", it sucks. A lot of the game-worlds would need a lot of editing. We still play an occassional game of CP2020, but it is getting more and more awkward as the 'big picture' does not hold water. The rulebooks (the illustrations in particular) seem to advocate characters and a style of gaming that are difficult to justify. Some of the adventures are difficult to work-out as a plot, as you run into asking: why?

Frankly, I don't remember what D&D felt like. I never played nor GM:ed a character past level 5 or 6 in any game, so I don't know much about heroic gaming. The perils (the high probability) of death have always travelled with us. But high-fantasy needs too much explaining. The implied background knowledge/assumptions are often themes that I/we have grown out of or they are just too much. The weapons and armour (or the bikinis) in the illustrations do not really promote the right kind of feel of it.

MERP was too simple (but it sure was a compact system). Rolemaster was inspiring for long, but in the end it had too many weaknesses. The level system is just unbearable. Many of the fixes made the system uncomfortably biased or too complex. We played in a "tailored" world, not too different from Hârn, but way less detailed. Mostly human (N)PCs, different cultures, tight feudal societies, fighting orders, religious schism, petty feudal wars, etc.

I don't know what the second edition of RM are like or the Shadow World is like. But the cover illustrations (Agnus McBride) convey a sense of mystery and myth, which is good. Has anyone had any experience with RoleMaster or SpaceMaster (the new versions)? What are they like?

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If I don't like something, in my view it has to be less than good (ie. bad) in some way. It would be absurd to say: I hate it because it is good.

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Running: AD&D / When a star falls
Running: MERP / Woses of the black wood

The UK and France were the only countries in Europe to survive (somewhat) intact. I do love the Twilight 2K setting. It's one of theose I'd try and buy if I won a huge Lottery jackpot.



To paraphrase a Scotsman I once overheard talking about why he hated the English:

"Becasue they're bastards!" (IMHO, the PCs, not the English. I like England)

Uthris: Thank you for reminding me of one of my most hated game systems: R. Talsorian's Interlock rules. Friday Night Firefight blows chunks. While it is hard to kill someone with a .22LR bullet it is not as impossible as Interlock makes it. A character with an above average build has no fear of the .22. The .22 is the most used caliber in gang related slayings in the US and Canada. Based off FBI statistics my heine!

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"Rules are GOOD. Rules help control the fun!" -Monica Geller, Friends

I've played RM2 a bit and a lot of RMSS (RMSS and RMFRP are more or less identical). I like RMSS, but there are TOO MANY SKILLS!!! However, Rolemaster can do "gritty high fantasy" very well, and that's hard to pull off. Higher level characters can get unhittable with parrying, but those are my only real beefs with the system.

That being said, I'm looking forward to HARP, which is the new rpg coming from I.C.E. Looks like it will be what Rolemaster should have been. It's still open-ended d100, but with scalable magic and less skills. I hope it does well... it's designed for those who are tired of D&D and want a fantasy game that supports fantasy and realism. Rasyr is the author, and he stops by here from time to time, being a Hârniac himself.

-Mark

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Putting the "Ho" in Hodiri since 1998.
The Forge: Western Martial Arts

I've said it before: if you like HarnMaster you almostly certainly won't like HeroQuest (and vice versa). They're trying to do opposite things, and in both cases, doing it rather well. There are, apparently, people who like both, but I'd bet they're pretty rare.



I don't think it's actually illegal to play Glorantha using RuneQuest rules these days, you know

Trotsky,
It's like anytime someone mentions "HeroQuest", you appear from behind a molecule of dust on the floor.

You post so rarely . . . .

To quote:

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A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.

I do still, occassionally, referee the game. But play, my Lismelder Clan Humakti was warped from RuneQuest to Pendragon by my GM and then from Pendragon to Hero Wars. We played once and then stopped. Is the Campaign Dead? It's stopped moving, I've kicked it a few times and nothings happened so, I think it's dead.

Neil

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Uxbridge English Dictionary:
Iconography: Filthy Byzantine pictures

Worst Games:

Tunnels & Troll (although inventive by using a dice pool system vs D & D)

Gamma World (struck me more as "cartoon" world)

Games that have the standard FRP problems - Levels, Hit points, not a true skill based system, or player stats (strength, End, Dex) that grow to godlike proportions through experience.


Good Games (for their time):

Dragonquest - Not the best sytem actually, but one of the first to use skill based sytems.

As I've gotten older, with more kids and less free time, I have not had much time to invest into learning any new systems. Thats why my list looks somewhat archaic (like a Jarin knights armour

HM is a great system, and I've spent my time on it instead of other games for the past umpteen years.

Although TROS has intereted me -

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Hmm Gurthang. What a nice name for a sword....

Hands down the worst RPG I've ever encountrered is "Imagine", which is basically the equivalent to a massive collection of mutated 1st edition D&D rules with some Rolemaster thrown in. It reminds me of the type of game I would have designed when I was 14 years old. There are a three huge hardcover books filled with way too much detail, some bad artwork, etc. Just awful.

Other than that, I'd have to give Hero Wars the black mark as well. No real rules set at all, nothing even approaching realism.

Yeah, well, I'm just so busy writing stuff for... oh, what's the name of that game again... the one that isn't like Harnmaster?

Fair 'nuff comment, though. I read a lot of the posts here, but I generally don't feel like I have a lot to add that people gaming more actively in Harn can't respond more effectively to. It's been a while since I last wrote anything for CGI, and I'm not presently running a Harn game, so I'm under no illusions about being able to contribute anything useful most of the time.

Hi Trotsky,
Does HarnMaster contain too many rules for your liking? What game do you write for? When you have gamed in Harn, what system did you use? Just curious...

Jamie 'Trotsky' Revell appears in the Additional Author Credits in HeroQuest and is also a Runemaster in the Glorantha Trading Association, meaning that he has personally funded Issaries inc. to keep the Glorantha Flame burning. Harniacs are not the only people passionate about a gameworld.

Also on this forum is Jeremy 'Fastred' Baker; an Initiate in the GTA.

Neil

as I said, Glorantha is my second vavourite gameworld

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Uxbridge English Dictionary:
Iconography: Filthy Byzantine pictures

I've given my reasons elsewhere on this board



http://www.ttrotsky.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/credits.htm gives the full run-down.



At the time, I used HarnMaster 1st ed. In future, I'd probably use GURPS - it can do the low fantasy gritty stuff well enough to get the right flavour, IMO.

To bite my tongue or not? hmm, not. I've seen alot of love for gurps on this board but honestly, I don't like it. I've owned it, ran fantasy and supers in it. I and the players just didnt like it as well as other systems we could use. We gave it an honest "try".

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Morsindarin

I never really liked D&D. I just couldn't come to grips with never getting any better at defending myself with a weapon. I don't mind the power aspect too much. One just has to be into that sort of thing.

Rolemaster was just way too complex. I don't mind MERP though a little less so.

GURPs just bothers me for some reason. I never really liked it.

My favorites would be:

Riddle of Steel
Harnmaster
RuneQuest
Talislanta
Pendragon

in no particular order depending upon my current bent or what ever.

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Fulk

Morsindarin:

Why bite your tongue about GURPS? Not everyone can like the most nearly perfect RPG!

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"Rules are GOOD. Rules help control the fun!" -Monica Geller, Friends