I'd like to discuss a d20 Harn Tangent for those who would like to see a version of Harn that follows some more mainstream d20 (variant or otherwise).

For me, I would like something very similar to d20 Modern, influenced with Grim Tailes, with a choice selection of House Rules.

I do enjoy the archetypes presented in d20 Modern: Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic.

I believe, after lots of waffling, that prestige classes may have their place. These I believe should be very specific to the landscape of Harn itself, and should highlight a body of knowledge or techniques that cannot be learned in any manner other than joining a highly specialized organization. I'm thinking of the thieves' guild, shek p'var, navehans, and rangers.

I like how Grim Tales has managed to break down all the class features of d20 D&D and make them talents or feats for the 6 core classes. I prefer however that the 10 Level Basic class be maintained. There was design principles for limiting the core classes to 10 levels, and I agree with them wholeheartedly.

Grim Tales also does away with a lot of feat bloat, so prevalent in d20 products.

Just a few thoughts.

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For Harn, perhaps Peasant, Scholar, Craftsman, Noble, Ecclesiast?

Grim Tales offers a customizeable way of determining class skills, which do not change by multi-classing. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but it is something like this:

3 or so skills based on your back ground
1 Knowledge, 1 Profession, 1 Craft
3 Skills of your choice

Your suggestions are definitely background, example:

Choose any three skills
Scholar (literacy, knowledge [any], profession [any])
Noble (Diplomacy, Administration, Riding, Hawking)
Ecclesiast (like Scholar, maybe limited knowledge, definitely a craft or two)

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Yes, Grim Tales is ideal for Harn. And, of course, it's based on d20 Modern.

How to create a character:
(page #s refer to Grim Tales)

1. Ability Scores 4d6, drop lowest score, arrange as desired (one option)

2. Action Points 5 + 1/2 character level rounded down (5 at 1st lvl). pg 2.

3. Allegiances List 3 allegiances in order of importance. pg 4.

4. Background Choose a background and choose/record skills as Core Skills. pg 4-6.

5. Character Class Choose a character class. pg 8-18. Record the following:

Hit Points: HP listed (full HD) + Con bonus
Skill Points: per class (x + Int bonus) x 4
Melee Attack Bonus: BAB + Str bonus
Ranged Attack Bonus: BAB + Dex bonus
Fort Save: Fort bonus + Con bonus
Ref Save: Ref bonus + Dex bonus
Will Save: Will bonus + Wis bonus
Defense: Dex bonus
Reputation: Rep bonus
Initiative: Dex bonus

6. Career Skills Choose 1 Craft skill, 1 Knowledge skill, and 1 Profession skill. These are Core Skills. pg. 20.

7. "Player's Choice" Skills Choose any 3 skills as Core Skills. pg 20.

8. Buy Skill Ranks Spend your Skill Points to buy Skill Ranks. Core skills cost 1 skill point per skill rank. Non-Core skills cost 2 skill points per skill rank. pg 24-49.

9. Feats Choose Feats. 1st lvl characters get 2 free feats. Plus, you get a choice of bonus starting feats from your character class. pg 50-69.

10. Talent Choose your basic talent (from character class basic talents). pg 70-83.

11. Loot Determine starting money and buy stuff. There aren't any rules for this in the Grim Tales book.

That's basically it.

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::: Shâne
Now logging as Shadow of Bukrai.

I'd keep the archetypes the same and add Harper to the list of advanced classes, to differentiate mere musicians from people who can incite action with their songs.

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What are the archetypes?

Sorry to be vague.
The achetypes refer to what Harshax mentioned, Strong hero, Fast hero, Tough hero, etc.

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Oh, I see. I think the idea is good, but I must admit that I hate the names. They don't say "Harn" to me. Any ideas for a rename?

Hmm...
The archetypes are based on ability scores and I wouldn't want to change them. A Strong hero could be a smith, huscarl, or gladiator. But if you insist, possibly give them names from the Harn zodiac. For barbarian characters it could refer to Totem animals.

Careers on the other hand might be a place to have more Harnic flavor: yeoman, smith, teamster, herald, gladiator, etc.

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If everyone takes a deep breath and a 30" step away from Harn, you will better understand the beauty of archetype. Harn is more than just grit that needs to be rubbed into one's hair, undergarments, and teeth. Harn is psuedo-realism, familiar fantasy, and socio-dramatics. Are those even words? Man, I love to see my own posts.

Seriously. I think an important goal for d20 Harn, is to first present a very familiar game mechanic, that is easily accessibly to non-harniacs. That means accepting, however imperfect, a small number of tropes inherent in d20. The most important being that d20 is broadly painted and heroic.

That to me is the whole point of d20 Harn.



This would be a great way to differentiate Humans in d20, who are otherwise blandly described. Each sunsign could give a +2 or some-such to a set of skills. Good idea.



I'll be reviewing my HMC career table tonight

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A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.

I don't (yet) have Grim Tales of D20 Modern, so excuse my ignorance: why is the Strong Hero/Charismatic Hero thing more preferable than traditional PC classes or no classes at all?

Two reasons I can think of right off the bat:

1. They're not tied to a setting, genre, or 'occupation'. They are more like templates. Like calling someone athletic, or a quick learner, or a people person.

2. Even though they're not like traditional character classes they still serve the same mechanics purpose and allow most of the rest of the rules to be used as is.

The classes from d20 Modern / GM are based on saving throw progressions. You basically have three types of characters, those that have a fast Fort progression, those that have a fast Will progression, and those with a fast Reflex progression. Take two of each and vary the BAB progression and you end up with the six d20 Modern classes.

So you could, if you were so inclined, only have the three basic 'classes'.

Or you could do what d20 Call of Cthuhlu does. It doesn't use character classes, but part of the process of making a character is choosing one of the three saving throw progressions (which is, in essence, choosing a class).

Make sense?

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::: Shâne
Now logging as Shadow of Bukrai.

Gotcha. That actually what my Harn OGL does. No classes, you just choose which one of the three saves is your best. Have you had a chance to look at it yet (hint hint)?

The d20 Modern archetypes are preferable to traditional PC classes because they are flexible. All Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues are cookie-cutter made, with about 10% flexibility, while the Modern Archetypes are a lot more flexible.

You could for example, have a Smart Rogue or a Strong Rogue or a Charismatic Rogue. Each of these examples shows a rogue who solves problems differently, by being an expert, by being a thug, or by being a dashing leader of a band of merry men. The classes are more evocative; to me anyway; YMMV. In D&D every Rogue is an expert with sneak attack, the d20 Modern Rogue is not necessarily so.

I would like to extend these examples further, if it is possible. I'd like to see Tough or Charismatic Knights. Strong or Dedicated Shek P'var. Fast or Dedicated Priests. This is why I prefer most of d20 Modern to Grim Tales.

Finally, d20 Players expect to be able to sit down at a game, and with a few broad strokes, be able to define a character within a game. In my experience, this has always lead to more fruitful exploration of a setting's depth. While I've managed to play some rather long HarnMaster campaigns, it was only because my players trusted me that I was able to give them so much homework in order to understand the setting. I firmly believe that Harn can be just as rich, vibrant, consistent, and enjoyable for those players that want to experience it from a more heroic perspective. I just wouldn't be able to justify the work of a d20 conversion if I didn't think it was possible, because no matter how hard you try, there are some fundamental design premises in every ruleset that cannot be removed. Heroism is ingrained in d20.

I don't particulary believe that classes are preferable to no classes, I'm just presenting some ideas within the confines of my mission statement, which is to accept as many mainstream mechanics from d20 as possible. I may find that my goal is impossible, but I'm willing to explore the possibility of failure, and believe for the moment that I can succeed.

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A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.

Are you making the game already? I'd love to see what you've got.

I got nothing but a lot of high hopes, general design considerations, and a semblance of a mission statement. D20 Harn couldn't possibly be as grandiose as a Harn OGL, but this is what is on my plate.

Sun Sign Table - to make flavored humans (no gargun jokes please, we know that humans taste like ivashu-chicken to the orcs!)

Example:
Ulandus - +2 Knowledge [Nature], +2 Survival
Angberelius - Weapon Proficiency (Player's Choice)

Class Skills will be based on the following, and will not change when multi-classing.
Social Class + Background Occupation + Player's Choice

Prestige Classes
Again, d20 Harn is going to be a little more like d20 Modern than Grim Tales so I'm thinking that there will be narrowly defined classes for high specialized character types.

Feats

Skills
A high level overview of crafts on Harn

Equipment
Turning our beloved Harnic price list into Wealth DCs!

Magic
I want to present all the Shek P'var spells from HMM in d20 Stats. This should give DMs plenty of information to pick and choose which d20 Spells they want to toss into their own game.

Beastiary
This is going to be a lot of work. Turning Gargun and Ivashu into d20 stats.

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Maybe not, but I bet more people will play it. If you want, I'd be happy to paste your rules into my layout.

Cool.

Cool.

Cool.

Yeah that's what I'm doing as well.

Yep, me too.

For the most part, I think we'll be working in the same thread, which is why I have contributed to the OGL when I could. Many things shouldn't change at all, and anything I do is Open Game Content, therefore if it is appropriate, please use it.

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My thinking is that it may be more constructive to somehow combine these two things (your choice of course). Grant hasn't emailed me back with his comments regarding Harn OGL, so I don't really know what direction he thinks it should go in.

One thing that has always bugged me about d20, was the literacy thing. You either were or were not, and you were fluent or not fluent. I'd like to see speaking and reading seperate, and degrees of fluency.

Rank
1) Rudimentary understanding, Tourist's level of fluency/literacy
2) Poorly educated, heavily accented, could not be mistaken for a native speaker
3) Average Literacy, native speaker or slight accent
4) Above average literacy and vocabular, no accent detectable
5) Highly literate, familiar with ancient variants of the same tongue, speaks without an accent, can be purposefully verbose and difficult to discern by people with far less levels of literacy.

Now, if the GM wants, he can assign a +2 or -2 penalty for certain social situations. A tourist may be easily swindled, and a magistrate may have an easier time making his case in court against a common yeoman.

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Man, this is bizarre: I was thinking about this issue today on the way to the post office. The literacy thing is also similar (to me) with the BAB issue: D20 assumes that BAB covers all weapons as long as you're proficient with that particular group, as opposed to havng each weapon be a skill. BTW, does anyone know if there are regional accents in Harn? Does someone from Kanday sound just like someone from Rethem?

Shane once referred to me as such:




There should be. That would be really cool. Sounds like you're grooving on this idea.

In regards to making a single file of both ideas. . . . I believe 25% (Character creation) will be pretty different, so having it appear side by side with another variant would be to much information. All the rest will probably be verbatim.

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A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.

Definately. One product, two solutions. I suggest having TBV format both docs so they look the same.

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::: Shâne
Now logging as Shadow of Bukrai.

Right. I didn't mean put the two rulesets in the same document, but have two documents that basically look the same, use the same layout and pehaps some of the same stuff (the top page Harnic headers, background info, spells, monstersetc), but different Chargen sections and probably comab too. Just an idea, really.

Oh! Absolutely. I think your layout skills are fantastic. Think we can get away with the traditional HMx Layout?

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A moment is the most you can ever expect from perfection.