Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

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Brian_Smaller
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Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#1 Post by Brian_Smaller » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:18 pm

Hi
Can someone walk me through HMg missile combat. I really think I am missing something and cannot get my head around the rules.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#2 Post by zrayaan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:39 pm

I can do a walk through, but I might point out that you have to shift your thinking about archery fire-in HMG you can succeed in your roll but still miss due to deviation. Some players won't like this, especially since the deviation comes after the skill roll, so they can't compensate. HMg doesn't use skill zones, but I add a deviation of 1d3 for SS.

If this doesn't address your confusion, I'll be glad to go step by step.
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#3 Post by Targan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:50 pm

zrayaan wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:39 pm
HMg doesn't use skill zones, but I add a deviation of 1d3 for SS.
What's SS? I reduce deviation to 1d3 for the first 2 range bands.
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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#4 Post by zrayaan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:04 pm

SS= substantial success, or 1/2 success range
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#5 Post by Targan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:08 pm

zrayaan wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:04 pm
SS= substantial success, or 1/2 success range
Hmm. That's a pretty cool idea.
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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#6 Post by zrayaan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:16 pm

Targan wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:08 pm
zrayaan wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:04 pm
SS= substantial success, or 1/2 success range
Hmm. That's a pretty cool idea.
Hmg doesn't like the skill zones because it messes with the odds. I discussed it in my strat guide post (I think). But I find when there is a problem with HMG archery, it's generally the issue of deviation, and it's simpler to just add a third layer this way.

I use to try to tie deviation to wind factor and direction so players could compensate, but it doesn't really work. It's the best I've come up with. If it's a deal breaker for players then I'll just go back to HMC missile combat.
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#7 Post by Brian_Smaller » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:33 pm

OK - the preceding few posts just confused me more :)

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#8 Post by zrayaan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:40 pm

Okie. Give me a bit
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#9 Post by zrayaan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:48 pm

There are two combatants: Alpha & Beta

Alpha STR11; Shortbow ML 66; Draw Weight ((SI6+STR11)×5=85#; use 80# row)
Beta Dodge ML 72; Roundshield ML 72; Light H Armor

Assumptions: a cross wind of Wind Force 2; Beta begins 150 feet/30 hexes from Alphais unengaged, running zigzag (actively dodging) towards the archer; neither Initiative nor Physical/Encumbrance Penalties are factors.

On his turn Alpha selects LOAD & FIRE.
1. Attack Declaration:
Alpha will obviously target Beta at 30 yards with his shortbow; Beta has hit locations (on the Humanoid on the MISSILE STRIKE LOCATION TABLE), and is therefore a Type 1 target. Noting that Beta has a roundshield (and the GM simplifies matters by agreeing to apply passive cover on to the areas covered by the roundshield on the graphical strike table), Alpha targets location C-13, a point roughly on the sternum.

2. EML Calculation:
Alpha has a ML72, is not moving [±0EML] and not mounted [±0EML].
Beta is moving in a zigzag pattern [-Dodge SI7×2=-14EML], and there is a cross wind [WF2×-10=-20EML].
At 30 hexes, using the 32/Less column on the MISSILE RANGE TABLE against a shortbow with 80# pull yields a low velocity missile [±0EML] (because the value on the able is not in bold lettering) with a base impact of 7P.
The EML calc is therefore: 72-0-0-14-20=38

3. Attacker Skill Roll:
Let's take three different outcomes:

If Alpha rolls a 41, a Marginal Failure (MF), then the arrow drops downward 2d6 squares, resulting in a roll total of 6. The arrow therefore hits C-6, which is off the silhouette (or a steed strike if the defender is mounted).

If Alpha rolls a 30, which is a Critical Success (CS), the there is no deviation at all and the arrow strikes it's intended square C-13 Abdomen.

If Alpha rolls a 31, a Marginal Success (MS). The 'ones' die is the Least Significant Digit, and determines the direction of deviation in location squares on the MISSILE HIT LOCATION TABLE (directly down); an MS results in a distance of 1d6 squares, and this roll results in a 3. The arrow hits at location C-10—the Groin. If, however, Alpha rolled a 6 for deviation then the arrow would strike C-6 and, just like a failure, miss.*

4. Missile Block:
Beta is running, and as GM I would normally rule he cannot actively block with his shield; however, as the arrow is a low velocity missile (and because by consensus I am an evil GM) I decide to allow an active shield block.

The -10EML is found on the ACTIVE BLOCK EML PENALTIES table, under Roundshield against LV Missile.
The EML Calc is 72ML-10EML=62 resulting in a BLOCK. Go to weapon damage rules of your choice.

Earlier I mentioned I would allow the locations to be covered by the inset rounshield on the silhouette. Had the arrow struck one of these locations, I would have used the PASSIVE COVER GUIDE to determine the chance of the arrow hitting the shield.

5. Missile Strike Delivery
But let's assume Beta did not block the arrow, and Alpha rolled the MS result above.

5a. Aspect Determination: always Point
5b. Impact Determination: 7 per the MISSILE RANGE TABLE, 80# shortbow at 32/Less.
5c. Injury Determination: 7P to the C-10 location (Abdomen) is covered by 1P armor (per the pre-made armor sets). A total of 6P yields a Serious (1d10+10 for 15 injury points) B1 wound to the Abdomen and forces a Shock roll. You can probably take from there.
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#10 Post by zrayaan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:52 pm

*So this is why I include an additional distance range for Substantial Success (1d3 location squares). Players don't like to hear they achieved a success but missed their target. Though this system is more akin to indirect fire with the shooter being the spotter, and if you can get them to change their thinking then all is right with the game again.
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#11 Post by Brian_Smaller » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:07 am

Thanks. I am going to sit down with some figures and that explanation and see if I can work this out.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#12 Post by gunnulf » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:13 am

Stopped using it because I hate the idea iof a failure on a success or the other way around. Having done archery for years, missing a target is just failure, plain and simple. No other part of combat works like that, so the needless confusion in the archery system is rules layers to a ridiculous extreme. At the base of any system, success is success, failure is failure, and their may be levels of either, but not to the point of success becoming failure. If I hit the target, I hit the target. I don't mind deviation, but a hit should not become a miss.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#13 Post by Brian_Smaller » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:46 pm

I am leaning that way myself. Seems like unnecessary complication.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#14 Post by zrayaan » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:46 pm

It only really gets absurd when the EML drops to 21-24. A smart player can easily game the system with smart penalties. However, all percentage based skill systems work optimally when scores are in the 40-80 range.

EDIT: Smooshed a few thoughts together. What I mean is, target C-13/14 and bank on a MF. You have 6 in 10 numbers (0,1,2,5,8,9) that will hit the desired point or drift up or down (assuming you don't get a crit failure, of course). The law of averages says that on 2d6 deviation distance either up or down you'll get a hit more often that if you targeted elsewhere (1+2, 1+3, 1+4, 1+5 possibly, 2+2, 2+3, 2+4, and 3+3). In fact, all a high ML really ensures is that you get fewer crit failures.
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#15 Post by zrayaan » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:38 pm

In defense of the missile system, lest I sound unduly negative, it makes archers very deadly. Because of this, it gives a realistic sense of urgency on the battlefield, even if the mechanic is itself far from realistic. That being said, I have not used it consistently myself since players don't like to be told that miss even when they roll well. Most often I use the zone targeting option in HM3, which has its own issues (in fact, although I never spoke to the designer about it, I suspect the HMg archery system was an attempt to avoid the magnitude issue which, of course, I didn't). Numbers, she be a bitch.
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#16 Post by MThurston » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:24 am

Not using that rule at all.

Terrible.

What about shooting down hill? Or shooting up hill?

EML minus range mod. Arrows/ bolts high speed, half dodge but full shield DML. Rock, weapons and darts are low speed for full DML.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#17 Post by zrayaan » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:52 am

MThurston wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:24 am
Not using that rule at all.
I'm unsure as to which rule you refer.
Cheers, Konnel.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#18 Post by Brian_Smaller » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:50 am

I think that he meant the entire missile combat resolution rule(s) in HMg.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#19 Post by MThurston » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:18 am

Yep.

Bows and Crossbows changed warfare forever. Having them changed everything. They should not be nerfed by rules. Yes crosswinds and height matter at extreme and long range. They shouldn't be crippling you at med and short ranges. And lets be honest. Shooting someone that is man sized shouldn't give you these minuses.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#20 Post by Brian_Smaller » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:52 am

I just think that it is easier to factor in all the penalties into the one roll to see if you hit.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#21 Post by Turin2 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:52 am

Bows and Crossbows changed warfare forever. Having them changed everything. They should not be nerfed by rules. Yes crosswinds and height matter at extreme and long range. They shouldn't be crippling you at med and short ranges. And lets be honest. Shooting someone that is man sized shouldn't give you these minuses.
They changed it to a point, but Hand to Hand was still the primary method by which battles where resolved for the most part. Even the famed English longbow, while very effective at Agincourt due to a combination of environmental, strategic and tactical factors, could not win the war for the English. The longbow heavy English lost a fair amount more battle than they won in the Hundred years war.

That being said, I agree on the man sized target issue. For any competent bowman, loosing an arrow at a man sized target at say 150 feet or less should be a very easy prospect, as long as that target is not moving, in particular if erratically or quickly.

I've played some WW2 era naval miniature games recently, and the basis for their "to hit" rules would make sense.

It works kind of like this - there is a base chance to hit, dependent upon range. No real difference here from HM rules. Then the modifiers are taken into account, such as a moving target, moving firer, etc., again no real difference. The biggest difference is that the modifiers are then multiplied for a factor based upon range. We'll say 4x for short, 2x for medium and 1x for long to keep it simple. Transferring this t HM, maybe a moving target reduces accuracy by 10%, with range modifiers as above. If the base for close range is 90%, the moving target factor would reduce it by 4x that amount, or down to 50%. Now you have it where a competent archer can hit a man sized target at 90% at 150 feet, but if he is moving it drops to 50%. Now at long range the base may be 15%, but the moving target drops it to 5%.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#22 Post by zrayaan » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:58 am

It wasn't individual bowmen firing at a single target that made archers so fearsome, it was many archers firing at men massed for an attack.
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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#23 Post by Turin2 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:34 am

It wasn't individual bowmen firing at a single target that made archers so fearsome, it was many archers firing at men massed for an attack.
Even massed archery had it's limitations. They were most effective against close order troops, without good body armor and without good shields. They could be effective against unbarded horsemen, but the problem here was that in most situations they could not get many volleys in before the horsemen closed the distance, and once the horsemen were amongst the archers it was a decidedly one sided affair favoring the horsemen.

At Agincourt you had everything working for the archers - a cautious and fractioned French command allowing the archers to set up in a prepared position, on a hill I believe. Better generalship would have launched an attack prior to the archers being set up. The muddy battlefield also favored the archers, making it take much longer for the French to close and disrupting their formation. And the hills of the landscape funneled the French into a kill zone and made flanking impossible. In other battles of the 100 years war English archers were driven from the field prior to setting up their defensive positions.

The horse archers of the mamluks and other islamic (and mongol) armies were more effective - due to the fact that they were mobile, and could loose arrows and retreat without much fear of being run down. They would even close to within 10-20 feet of their opponents to maximize accuracy and penetration of the arrows. Their bane was the christian crossbowmen - if a crusader formation had a good amount of crossbowmen, the horse archers would loose their arrows at great range to avoid being attacked at closer ranges by the crossbowmen. It would have been interesting to see how a crusader army equipped with a good percentage of longbowmen would have fared.

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Re: Can someone explain to me...HMg missile combat

#24 Post by MThurston » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:38 am

I watched a guy shoot 3 arrows in 5 seconds. Hit the center target every time and was moving when he did it. Just like regular melee combat you get and attack and there is a defense. Should you get any minuses to melee like you do in ranged combat?

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