Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

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Parmandil
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Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by Parmandil »

In the Kaldor Kingdom module (I checked with the last version 1.7 of february 2025) the population numbers for the main settlements are given as follows (in Brackets the numbers of households from the adjacent tables):
  • Athelren: 275 (55)
  • Baseta: 660 (132)
  • Bidow: 420 (85)
  • Esenor: 400 (80)
  • Fisen: 190 (38)
  • Gardiren: 640 (128)
  • Getha: 260 (52)
  • Heru: 415 (83)
  • Hutop: 340 (68)
  • Jedes: 245 (49)
  • Kiban: 2730 (546)
  • Kobing: 345 (69)
  • Kolorn: 360 (72)
  • Kyg: 340 (68)
  • Minarsas: 650 (130)
  • Nenda: 350 (59)
  • Nubeth: 355 (71)
  • Olokand: 800 (180)
  • Pendeth: 370 (74)
  • Qualdris: 610 (98)
  • Querina: 455 (91)
  • Setrew: 520 (104)
  • Shebra: 320 (64)
  • Sirendel: 310 (62)
  • Tashal: 11,400
  • Ternua: 395 (79)
  • Tonot: 315 (63)
  • Uldien: 285 (57)
  • Yeged: 360 (72)
  • Zoben: 295 (59)
  • Caleme: 325 (65)
  • Abriel: 170 (34)
  • Brynd: 245 (49)
  • Cholas: 310 (47)
  • Ledyne: 255 (41)
As you easily see, most numbers refer to the usual formula households x 5 = population (see, e.g., Kaldor 22). Only in six cases (shown in bold type above) this does not fit.

I suggest, Bidow (should be 425) and Olokand (should be 900) are simple miscalculations.

But for Nenda, Qualdris, Cholas, and Ledyne there's another explanation: The population numbers where built, before affiliated hamlets have been (re-)established on their own.
  • Nenda: The hamlet of Hymdir (11 HD) was present in 1984 (Kaldor in Encylopedia Hârnica 8), but not in 1986 (Kaldor Kingdom 1st ed.). So, 350 = (59 + 11) x 5. The correct number would be 295 for Nenda alone.
  • Qualdris: Two hamlets, Elend (11 HD) and Nibenel (13 HD) from 1984 had vanished in 1986. (98 + 11 + 13) x 5 = 610, which should be corrected to 490 for Qualdris alone.
  • Cholas: Same thing with Feth (15 HD). (47 + 15) x 5 = 310, should be 235.
  • Ledyne: Same thing Halda (10 HD). (41 + 10) x 5 = 255, should be 205.
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by bbailey »

I've been looking at this matter recently myself. There are a number of cases where different publications have different population numbers for a given settlement, with Kaldor and Rethem having the most discrepancies. The problem extends to settlement articles and Hârndex. There are a few cases where those sources differ from each other and/or the kingdom module. I've put together a spreadsheet to spot these but it's going to be a gradual process to fix everything.

The main cause of this is that writers over 40 years have been inconsistent in what the population number included. The kingdom modules give the number of households for the fief and say the average household has five people. But some settlement articles show a lower number, presumably because the writer was including only the people who live in the main town/village, not nearby hamlets. The problem is that other settlement articles use the exact population number from the kingdom module. Further, some articles clarify this by including a note that the population "includes nearby villages", but not all of them do. And in the kingdom module, as you point out, the "main" population number given is sometimes for the primary settlement alone but other times includes the nearby hamlets.

The way I see it, the population given for a castle/keep town includes nearby villages, but only those that are not given populations of their own in the kingdom module. The population of Minarsas, for example, would include the villages of Runuld and Lothlarny, which are shown on the local map but not listed in the data table, as well as any other villages not shown on the local map. Since Kaldor 42 lists Nibenel and Elend separately in the table, they should not be included in Qualdris' population. A correct example would be Kiban, as Kaldor 33 says Kiban has a population of 2,730, which is equal to the 546 HD shown in the table just for Kiban. If you add in the 13 HD for Ryseheel, the subtitle number would be 2,795.
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by Parmandil »

Thank you, Brent.

In fact, I think not many people will be concerned by differing numbers at all. They have no impact on their games. But nitpicking is fun! :wink:
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by SableFox »

Personally, I would go the other way and say and settlement whose population is exactly 5x HH is wrong. Some should have a lower population most higher. I would go for a household size of around 10 in Ivinian (and Ivinian households in Orbaal). However, the is not how HârnWorld works. But it is easy to image the population being any size you fancy. The rough tie-up between buildings depicted on maps and HH is more critical.
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by bbailey »

SableFox wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 8:23 pmThe rough tie-up between buildings depicted on maps and HH is more critical.
I don't necessarily agree with this. The number of households given for a major settlement includes people who live in small hamlets outside the bounds of the local map. So the number of buildings on the map really can't be correlated to the overall population with any degree of accuracy. You could say that the buildings shouldn't greatly outnumber households (unless an abnormally high number of them are barns, warehouses, outbuildings, etc), but that may be as far as you can go.
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

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bbailey wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 4:41 am I don't necessarily agree with this.
Fair enough.
…the number of buildings on the map really can't be correlated to the overall population with any degree of accuracy.
Agreed. That is why I said “roughly”.

As you say having far more ‘residential’ buildings than HH is a problem (unless some disaster has recently wiped out a significant portion of the population). I also think having too few residential buildings - in a town without space limitations (so unlike a city) - can also raise questions.
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by Parmandil »

The "missing" building can always be out of the map, either in small hamlets as bbailey suggested or as single homesteads like they are usual in my home region Westphalia.
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by Krazma »

I don't see the value in the number of households outside the context of HarnManor. The average number of people in a household may be 5 in a rural setting (as noted on Kaldor 23; it also tells us the average number of tenant acres), but that's fairly meaningless to an urban setting (including "castle towns" or anything large enough to have a Market Size associated with it. Once you start factoring "households" that include guildsmen with many journeymen and/or apprentices, urban laborers, and the like, the definition of "household" starts getting a lot muddier. And, of course, none of them hold any tenant acres. As a GM, I have a use for knowing, for example, that Gardiren has a population of 640 people. It is utterly meaningless to have that represented as 128 households, though. (I'm sure someone's done a spreadsheet and is sputtering, "But...but...my stapler!" right about now.)
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

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Between 128 households, religious establishments, Earl Curo’s family, retainers and servants, 40 castle guards, and a few homeless urban poor, I could see Gardiren’s real population being north of 1,100. Of course I am aware that it is officially only 640.
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by Sageryne »

Hi all,

Like many Harn fans, I used to obsess over small details like population numbers. As I have got older (not necessarily wiser), I have come to the realisation that players are mostly hustling from adventure A to adventure B and only give the "backdrop" the briefest of glances.

Don't get me wrong, I love all the detail that Harn provides. It makes the cities, towns, villages, castles, keeps, and abbeys all feel very real. When I run games for players, my players often comment how real it feels. Those numbers help make it feel real.

However, from my point of view, the key consideration is to never let "designing the backdrop" overtake the purpose of the backdrop. The purpose of all that detail is to make the world feel real. It is not intended to be a perfect simulation.

There have been a few instances were folks have tried to calculate the number of a specific guild based on the character tables from HarnMaster, or calculate the exact number of people in a manor. Trust me, when I was starting out, I was guilty of that. However, somewhere along the way, I relaxed and stopped worrying about making it perfect.

One of my old bosses once told me, "Perfect is the enemy of good."

My simple advice is "adjust as you see fit for your game."

My pHarn games likely have a higher population than shown in the kingdom modules (I have always found Harn as written to be very under-populated). That allows me to have the crowded cities and dark dangerous back alleyways that make for good roleplaying. It also makes the manors more productive, which is more in line with the later Middle Ages. I like playing in the later part of the High Medieval Period (1200 - 1300AD-ish, pre-Black Death) when the population was growing.

As always, your mileage may vary

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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by Balesir »

Sageryne wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 1:47 amLike many Harn fans, I used to obsess over small details like population numbers. As I have got older (not necessarily wiser), I have come to the realisation that players are mostly hustling from adventure A to adventure B and only give the "backdrop" the briefest of glances.
As a broad generalisation, that may be true - and, if you are playing an 'adventure game' it will definitely be true. But, over the last decade or so, I have been exploring roleplaying in many various forms. I think I can say that I have played the following types of game, as a non-exhaustive list:
  • Adventure games (arguably the original form)
  • Story games (collaborative story generation)
  • Soap Opera games
  • Minor strategy games (cooperative and competitive)
  • Experiential world exploration games
  • Genre simulation games
  • Roleplaying-themed gambling games
  • Wish-fulfillment games
Hârn as a setting is actually quite suitable for several of these; I think that is one of its strengths, in fact. For the third and fifth on the list, the consistency and plausibility - even down to quite nitty gritty levels - is a great advantage at the very least, maybe even essential.

So, for your adventure games and such, by all means don't sweat the details - they are really not germane to what you're doing. But for some users, the detail is really the nub of the thing.
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

Post by Parmandil »

Very interesting! Could you, please, elaborate a bit about these eight forms of gaming - perhaps giving some examples?
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Re: Erroneous population numbers in Kaldor Kingdom module?

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Parmandil wrote: Sat Mar 22, 2025 8:42 pmVery interesting! Could you, please, elaborate a bit about these eight forms of gaming - perhaps giving some examples?
Whoa - a big subject, but I can give a few links and examples, maybe. Treatises and books have been written about game design aims and philosophy, but as an example of particularly good stuff try here.

Going through the various types of game:

Adventure Games
I guess D&D is the original example, as it developed from around 2nd Edition onwards. You have characters engage in 'adventures' with fairly well defined objectives and, often, a pretty standard 'Joseph Campbell-esque' story structure (leave home territory, pass tests, quest to big bad and engage with the nub, returning with loot or special powers).

Story Games
These approach the 'story of play' from a different angle; often the rules are set up to adjudicate plot developments rather than success or failure of specific actions. An example: a character plans to break into the prince's chambers and steal the letter from the suspect nobleman. The purpose of the rules structure is not to see if the character picks the lock successfully or sneaks past a guard successfully - it's to see whether or not they get the letter. If they fail, maybe it was because they failed to pick the lock - or maybe the letter wasn't there, or maybe there was a permanent guard set on the chamber who wouldn't be lured away or bribed, or...

Basically, the rules decide who gets control of the story in the moment, and the reasons why what is decided upon happens is up to the players. For an example, the original would be Apocalypse World (played as set out in the rules; this is actually a potential issue, as players with an established 'tradition' of play will often tend to drift toward what they are used to rather than what was intended by the rules writer).

Soap Opera Games
My original foray into this space was actually the 'Hallmoot' scenario I ran at the first HârnCon in Vancouver. Since then the form has developed independently in a few areas - notably with things like 'Legacy: Life Among the Ruins' and M*A*S*H*E*D. The aim of these games is sipmly an extended campaign of low key play, developing the (relatively unspectacular) lives of the protagonists.

Minor Strategy Games
The poster child for this was D&D 4th Edition. The 'adventures' could be basically structures to hold the tactical challenges of party versus monster combat. The combat was a really complex tactical challenge, not just a die rolling competition; much of the enjoyment was derived from showing off how you could leverage the moves you had. A few other games have tended in this direction, but none so clearly or with such purity of purpose.

Experiential World Exploration
My old 'Hallmoot' scenario touched on this as well, but the deeper recent oevres have been things like Good Society (although that maybe fits into 'Genre Emulation' better?). The poster child is maybe Bluebeard's Bride.

The aim in these games is to let you feel as though you are actually there in the game world; Hârn can fit the bill extremely well, but is fragile in the sense that it is susceptible to drifting into other modes of play.

Genre Simulation
Games directed firmly at emulating a specific 'genre reality'. I have already mentioned Good Society, but the old 'Marvel Superheroes' game was arguably a classic of this type. For a really unusual approach, PrimeTime Adventures is an interesting 'play the TV series of your imagination' game.

Roleplaying-themed Gambling Games
Games where, in the guise of a character, you are challenged to 'step on up' and try your chances in a world/system where luck plays a dominant part. Tunnels and Trolls perhaps played with this back in the day, but modern games that do similar things might include 'Mork Borg' and its spinoffs.

Wish Fulfillment Games
Full disclosure: this is not, as far as I know, a game style that anyone actually aspires to consciously, but some games with extreme levels of GM power can slide, ignominiously into it as they (consciously or unconsciously) play favourites and set rules parameters so that their preferred story emerges. Often, but perhaps not always, a dysfunctional and unintended 'style'.
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