A debate is still raging on the HarnList. Don't let the silence fool you into complacency. The debate will come back as if were a brand new topic as soon as someone talks about an old publication or anyone from Columbia Games LTD announces the publication or even the plans of writing a new publication.

IMHO the Great Debate has waged long enough. HarnMaster is the game system, HarnWorld is the background. The company that publishes them both (Columbia Games LTD) published both HarnMaster and HarnWorld stuff in the same covers. This includes statistics for characters, game rules and the like.

The argument against:

The argument for:

The above is a concise summation of the many, many, many posts on the topic. Everyone seems to have had their say (at least those that care to - I, for one, saved my opinions for this editorial).

Columbia Games LTD produced a detailed fantasy role-playing system (HarnMaster) only after first creating an equally detailed fantasy background (HarnWorld). The rules came into being at the demand of distributors who did not wish to sell a background without a rule system. This was true back in the early 1980's and it still holds true today.

The Great Debate came to light when, with the creation of HarnMaster Core (AKA HMII) they published books with both background and rules in the same covers. Examples:

HarnMaster Barbarians - a rewritten work of all the previously published barbarian articles (there had been one published in almost every kingdom module plus one or two in the even older Encyclopedia Harnicas) plus new rules on rituals, invocations, how to create a barbarian, hunting and more.

HarnMaster Manors - the majority of which is information on how to generate a manor inter-spliced with lots of general background explaining how each aspect of the manor functions. It also includes three sample manors and their maps.

While CGL always included character statistics in adventure modules, many of the debaters have used this as a negative example. As a busy GM I can't quite understand why having fully made characters inside adventure modules, background and other publications is bad. Isn't it easier to modify an existing character (or even translate it into the system of choice) than to create a new character?

Personally I don't care what CGL publishes in the Harn line, so long as they begin publishing again. Adventure modules, background, anything will do. There is a definite focus on the island of Harn. I find it very interesting that most of the debaters seem to assume that the creative folk at CGL can create all new publications without repeating any of the old information.

Which would be better for the general market:

Notice please that I said "general market". The HarnFolk on the list seem to believe everyone and their dog either has all the old publications, or can afford to acquire them. I actually do own a copy of almost everything CGL has ever published. But I still bought HM:Barbarians. Why? Because it was incredibly nice to have it all in one binder. I've also found the new rules and background very handy.

Some HarnFolk say cutting up the CGL publications, three-whole-punching them and using their own binders works well enough.

Bully for them.

It doesn't work for me. My Tharda Republican Module is falling apart - I may soon have to three-whole punch it or put it in page protectors if I want to keep using it. Ditto for the map.

Ultimately CGL has promised to try and separate rules from background in future publications, allowing users to easily access one or the other. I fear that, unless the document is written with this in mind, it will result in way too many cross-references. "For examples see background page x". "To see how this works, see rules page y." Back and forth. Forth and back. Ug!

Frankly, even if CGL had one of my own works - I'd just let them publish it as they will. They:

If folks want to see more new information published - then answer the cattle call and submit a proposal. If they don't want to help the situation - then posting their debaters standpoint on the list or the 'net just infuriates others. Convince CGL to change if you want to by writing them. Take a poll and give CGL the results. Be constructive darnit!

Other Debates I'm Really Tired Of...

There are many. I've listed the ones that really tick me off in the hopes of venting steam in my own space rather than polluting the bandwidth on the HarnList with them.

When Will They Publish...

They'll publish when it's ready and not before. There are very long delays between published items with CGL. Its fans have long debated the reasons:

And CGL has certainly made its share of mistakes in the past. If you check the index of several of the first kingdom modules, you'll notice 1987 release dates that were never met. Some folks are still "waiting" for these modules to see the light of day. Others, like myself, have moved on - and begun writing the stuff on our own.

Regardless of why it happens, unless you're part of the company, as a fan there's very little you can do about it. Complain to the company if you think it will help. If I never hear "When will they come out with HarnMaster Military?" again on the list it will be too soon! I swear I see red when I hear that question or see HarnMaster Military listed on a CGL price list as "coming soon".

In the HarnList FAQ it says:

4.1 Columbia Games has been plagued for most of it's life with major production delays. There are a number of reasons. First, the authors and editors are all sticklers for details. Most of the material goes through numerous revisions and wholesale changes before being published. Second, Columbia Games has a small staff, and they publish several products besides Harn. Production of other products often causes delays in Harn material simply because they don't have the manpower to do too many things at once. Third, Columbia Games has a small budget. Printers require money upfront, so bad sales on one product can cause delays on printing the next one, as they have to wait to collect enough money for the print run. This is improving, however, as more people join autoship. Columbia Games' production schedule has improved in recent years, and there is hope that it will continue to improve.

If I had my way the following would be added:

Questions regarding HarnPublications (when or if they've been published, price, availability etc.) should be answered by visiting the CGL site and not posting such questions to the list!

We on the list don't know! And if we do - which would insinuate we were somehow involved in the creation of the publication - we probably cannot say due to contract obligations!

The Return of the Idiotic Harnic War Ferret

I wasn't there for the start of it, but every time an argument devolves into a bad version of he said/she said someone thinks its really funny to somehow work in this critter of stupidity.

It's not funny.

It's not on topic.

And you're wasting bandwidth.

Someone kill it. Please.

This isn't Harn World/Master Related...

Many people post on topics they think others would be interested in reading. If people are interested and the moderator doesn't complain - guess what, it's probably on topic.

If you think it's off topic - tell the moderator. Make him work (sorry Steve, it's just the way I feel) don't spam the list with your negative attitude.

If you don't like it/don't want to read it - then delete the post and ignore the thread. If you can't afford to download all the posts then I suggest you log into a web based newsgroup reading service. For the HarnList, get yourself an on-line e-mail account and direct the traffic there. Delete what you don't want, download what you do.

How Dare You...

Sending e-mail attachments to the list is wrong. I admit it. I've done it by mistake as have others. We feel ashamed for our error - we do not need one or more indignant flamers to tell the whole list how we screwed up their day and made them pay for seconds more of download time.

Yes it's wrong.

Yes the person who did it is in the wrong.

But please, please, please - save your flames for personal mail. Send it to them direct. Don't waste our time with your inanities.

The same goes for when the list receives spam. It happens occasionally. And either you can try to track down the spammer and tell them personally or report it to the spammer's ISP. The list does not need that type of traffic. It is off track, and very very inane.

I'm Right You're Wrong so Just Shut Up!

No, no, no - that's not what I'm saying; but it is a kind of argument that appears on the list from time to time.

Posters really shouldn't hit that reply button quite so fast.

If you think the response is inflammatorily you should send it to someone else first (if not the moderator, then maybe another hothead, erm - person from the list that you know. If you can't find one send it to me!) I'm a hothead. This editorial alone should prove my Irish temper (trust me the word "debate" used above was not my first choice!).

The list is here for fans to share ideas and promote discussion on the topic of Harn/HarnMaster. Sometimes it does go off topic - but I have less problem with when that happens to when I'm following a thread only to hear someone tell another that they are wrong in their opinion.

How can an opinion be wrong?

It can be based on faulty information, and you can disagree with it - but it can't be wrong. And telling someone to shut up (either said politely or not) is even worse. I may disagree with what you say but I will gladly defend your right to say it. And before you ask: I'm Canadian, not American; but that's another topic.

Help you? Please!

Someone posts to the list with a specific question, or seeking a particular reference.

Instead of getting the factual answer they crave, they get a "why should you need that when..." type answer. The person was not asking for your opinion on the value of the topic - so why did you give that to the poster? Hopefully the person replying just didn't understand the question and it was not an attempt to belittle, degrade or otherwise insult the poster.

But it sounds to me like a few people on the list have a hard time accepting the idea that when you post in reply to something you're suppose to be trying to help.

Women in Mediaeval Settings/Role Playing

Argh! Uhg! Eeek! Urk! (Conniption Fit!)

I'm a woman. I've been role playing for ... a while. I convince other women to role play and let me tell you it sure isn't by telling them:

(Fume! Steam!...Deep breaths)

I run games in Tharda. I can easily meet you depravity for depravity. I write about Agrikan orders for Criminy's sake - trust me I can plummet the depths with the best of them.

But that's not what Role Playing is suppose to be about. It's suppose to be about soaring the heights of human possibilities. Bad things happen and sometimes it can be interesting to role play through those things. But that doesn't mean its fun to always role play bad things!

Why limit women? It's a fantasy world. Historical accuracy? You want historical accuracy? No gods+no magic+no other races=no point. There. I've stated my opinion clearly.

But even if you do run a historically accurate world why must you dwell upon the victimization of women? Make the woman player's character an exception to the rule - a Red Sonia with a happy background who chose this way of life and has her family support. Sure there'll be sexism and lots of barriers to overcome, but with good support anything is possible - including raising your player's self-esteem as well as that of the character.

As to that lovingly sexist question: Why do women role play?

I reply: Why do men role play? Why does anyone role play?

Because it's Fun! Trust me folks the sexes may be different, but everyone likes to have fun once in a while. If you think women are alien beasts, maybe it's time to put down the dice, step out from behind the GM's screen and socialize.

(Fume! Steam!!)

Point - CounterPoint - Silence

Hello? Oh. Hi. We were just having a nice discussion. You said one thing, I disagreed and posted my points but you never replied? Why?

I hate this when it happens to me and I equally hate it when it happens to others. A debate is a give and take and yes, sometimes it does go round and round but so long as it doesn't devolve into an I'm right and you're wrong - there's nothing wrong with it.

Prove me wrong. Bring up points that punch through my arguments. Make me rally my facts for another advance against you. But also be open minded. Be willing to be convinced against your current stand. I may fail to change your opinion but don't deny me the chance. I certainly do not deny you that chance with me.

Posting on Tharda

Why oh why am I always killing threads on Tharda? When I post on the topic others stop. I hate that. I have my own ideas but I'd like to get more. I get great inspiration from questions posted to the list. I get equal amounts of inspiration when I read other people's replies.

Yes I write almost exclusively about Tharda. I've read everything CGL has produced. But that doesn't make me an expert, just a rabid fan. ;) I know other HarnFolk have games in or around Tharda out there. They could always post their response too.

I'm not a SME (Specialty Matter Expert - it's what technical writers call the folk they have to interview to get answers about what the technical writer is suppose to write on or about) for Tharda. Really I'm not!


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